Finally rotated the tires and some Q's?

[BrenGun]

So, I finally rotated the tires for the first time since we bought the Lib in 2005. Its my wife's vehicle and while I have always done my own work on my TJ, I've never really done too much for the Lib except for oil changes (and even then, it wasn't until a few years back that I did for the first time... ). Well I finally am getting into it. I rotated the tires and it was the devil's work getting the lug nuts off after the last time the tire monkeys impacted the nuts on.
But here's the two questions- I noticed that the lug nuts go on easily at first and then get to point where they can't be hand tightened. Then with the lug wrench there's a bit of resistance before it disappears and they screw right on. I noticed that with all the lugnuts, but have never noticed that before with any other vehicle. Also as I was taking the nuts off I noticed the lugs held magnetized bits of rust as if they were magnetic. Are they for some reason or is it just a static electromagnetic charge? I always grease the lugs with some left over grease so that they aren't as dry and don't get rusted on. Sort of necessary in Maine. idea.gif

 

[Boiler]

Sounds a bit odd to me. All of them are like that?

Maybe to be safe buy a high quality set of studs & nuts and make an afternoon of changing them?

I never grease mine and we get lots of road salt here. My main reason is that I'm **** retentive and tighten mine to 100 ft/lbs every time. Grease messes with that number and you'd need to use a lower torque to apply them. I'm not comfortable doing that.

If you buy quality nuts like mcgard I believe they have lifetime guarantees that they won't rust. They are expensive, but the way I look at it is not only do you not have to buy a set of lugnuts every year, you don't have them looking like crap between new buys.

When I set mine to 100 ft/lbs for the first time I was suprised on how much less torque that is than many shops put on them. Went from fear of breaking them to taking very little effort.

 

[BrenGun]

Yep, all of them are like that. I may have to do that. Any good writeups on replacing the studs? And thanks for the suggestion on the nuts.

 

[belvedere]

BrenGun, I've had all my wheels off, and didn't notice anything like what you're describing. Not sure what to make of it.

Ditto to Boiler's advice about torquing the nuts (on any vehicle).

 

[JeepJeepster]

If you use an impact on those mc guard lugs they will still rust. I tried it on one of mine and its rusted now. So I remove all lugs by hand now and never let a shop hack it all up.

Sounds odd to me also. I guess its possible if they were over tightened they messed up the threads in the lugs some.

Not sure if I would use grease on the lugs. That will allow you to over tighten them which is bad. I use anti seize and some will say that also allows you to over tighten them but so far so good.

 

[tjkj2002]

Not sure if I would use grease on the lugs. That will allow you to over tighten them which is bad. I use anti seize and some will say that also allows you to over tighten them but so far so good.

Anti-seize on bolts require a lower torque value,just the same at using grease or oil.

Classic case of the wheels studs and/or the lugnuts have stretched.


Oh and I have always used a impact to zip on/off my lugnuts for the past 10 years with zero issues.Then again when I zip them on with my electric impact it's only till they touch the rim seat(about 40-60lbs-ft) and then get final torqued on the ground with a torque wrench.

 

[JeepJeepster]

Yeah, usually Ill loosen them by hand then use an electric impact to take them all off and snug them back up. Then I hand torque them. Keeps all the finish looking good on the lugs and I know its torqued correctly(kinda correct according to you).

 

[Ry' N Jen]

So, I finally rotated the tires for the first time since we bought the Lib in 2005. Its my wife's vehicle and while I have always done my own work on my TJ, I've never really done too much for the Lib except for oil changes (and even then, it wasn't until a few years back that I did for the first time... ). Well I finally am getting into it. I rotated the tires and it was the devil's work getting the lug nuts off after the last time the tire monkeys impacted the nuts on.
But here's the two questions- I noticed that the lug nuts go on easily at first and then get to point where they can't be hand tightened. Then with the lug wrench there's a bit of resistance before it disappears and they screw right on. I noticed that with all the lugnuts, but have never noticed that before with any other vehicle. Also as I was taking the nuts off I noticed the lugs held magnetized bits of rust as if they were magnetic. Are they for some reason or is it just a static electromagnetic charge? I always grease the lugs with some left over grease so that they aren't as dry and don't get rusted on. Sort of necessary in Maine. idea.gif

This is really the first time you have rotated the tires since you bought the "Lib" in 2005???

Really???

Wow!

You are special!

 

[Redbone]

First the lug nut problem - VERY abnormal for even 1 to act like that. ALL acting like that IS a problem. Lugs are VERY hard material. Factory nuts don't lag far behind. If you were more mechanically inclined I'd suggest a thread chaser over each one first and examine closely. Otherwise I'd suggest a professional look at them (not the tire monkey place) and repair. Lastly - find a tire shop that tightens lugs using torque wrench and vehicle specific chart. Don't be concerned if they run them in with a air gun.

Torqueing with grease/lube - In both engine building and in equipment repairs in chemical manufacturing facilities it is desirable to use a lubricant. No revising of specs should be done. Anti-seize works perfect for me. Grease is o.k. and oil is better than nothing. If you don't have the specs for your vehicle 90 - 100 ft/lbs should work. Be sure to torque in a cross pattern - not circular. I usually hand tighten first, half of spec next, and final torque to spec.

Here is the reason for lube with no variation from spec - the specified torque is under perfect conditions. The restriction of the thread contact AS WELL AS the surface contact of nut to wheel takes away from the actual torque applied. This throws the actual torque reading off by differing amounts. To get the REAL torque on each nut and the SAME torque on each you should add lube to minimize restriction. Putting any kind of fudge factor in causes the actual torque to be off exactly that much from spec. With proper lube almost all of the torque as read on the wrench is applied to the lug/rim.

 

[Ry' N Jen]

First the lug nut problem - VERY abnormal for even 1 to act like that. ALL acting like that IS a problem. Lugs are VERY hard material. Factory nuts don't lag far behind. If you were more mechanically inclined I'd suggest a thread chaser over each one first and examine closely. Otherwise I'd suggest a professional look at them (not the tire monkey place) and repair. Lastly - find a tire shop that tightens lugs using torque wrench and vehicle specific chart. Don't be concerned if they run them in with a air gun.

Torqueing with grease/lube - In both engine building and in equipment repairs in chemical manufacturing facilities it is desirable to use a lubricant. No revising of specs should be done. Anti-seize works perfect for me. Grease is o.k. and oil is better than nothing. If you don't have the specs for your vehicle 90 - 100 ft/lbs should work. Be sure to torque in a cross pattern - not circular. I usually hand tighten first, half of spec next, and final torque to spec.

Here is the reason for lube with no variation from spec - the specified torque is under perfect conditions. The restriction of the thread contact AS WELL AS the surface contact of nut to wheel takes away from the actual torque applied. This throws the actual torque reading off by differing amounts. To get the REAL torque on each nut and the SAME torque on each you should add lube to minimize restriction. Putting any kind of fudge factor in causes the actual torque to be off exactly that much from spec. With proper lube almost all of the torque as read on the wrench is applied to the lug/rim.

Here we go again!
http://www.jeepkj.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38233&highlight=torquing+nuts

From my original post of 02-27-2009

Wet Torque vs Dry Torque? Opinions please!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What is the general consensus on "Wet Torque vs Dry Torque?"
Especially in regards to Lug nuts (or for some import vehicles bolts used to fasten a vehicles wheel to a hub.)
In layman's terms, applying anti seize (copper slip, Molly slip, Teflon based grease, plain old grease or some form of oil) to the threads of the wheel studs/lug nuts/ bolts then torquing the lug nut/bolt to the manufactures recommended specification.
This will of course include doing the same for engine assembly.
The stretching of threads with cut threads opposed to rolled (ARP products for example) threads and so forth.

I was taught to always apply Copper slip (or a similar product) to either the lug nuts or wheel studs and on the back of a wheel so that the wheel and hub do not fuse together due to corrosion making removal easier.
After wrenching for 30 years, am I misinformed and doing it wrong?
I have never had a wheel come off from using lubricated threads or it's torque be affected.

What are your opinions on this?

 

[Redbone]

I'm not going to read 3 pages. I read a few entries and saw no real factual knowledge. I read one that states "it will be 79ft lbs wet or dry, the reading on the wrench will be the same". The key here is "reading on the wrench". That reading is only the correct indication of the force applied to the lug if the other resistance is removed. The lube removes the friction from the reading on the wrench which makes the reading the actual torque imparted in the lug.

If I am wrong on this an entire nation of mechanical engineers are wrong as well.

 

[Ry' N Jen]

I use anti seize on my lug nuts all the time!
I have been doing so for the last 26 years and NEVER
have I had any problems with lug nuts...
Even off road racing at 90 mph (OK, it doesn't sound that fast... But in a classic Mini!)
Anyway...

Here we go again!

(popcorn)(popcorn)(popcorn)

 

[Redbone]

Out of curiosity I read further. I found this "When applying torque to a dry bolt more friction is created than applying torque to a wet bolt with oil or other automotive fluids on the threads. With less friction (wet threads), the bolt will stretch more before a torque wench will click. Because friction is such a big factor in bolt torque, it is important to know the difference between applying torque to a dry bolt and a wet bolt. Using oil, anti-seize or other types of thread lubricant is a common practice, but an understanding that wet threads require less torque than dry threads because of friction is very important. Since every type of lubricant has a different loss of friction coefficient, it is recommended that every technician own a chart showing how much to reduce the torque when using different bolts and lubricants. This type of chart can accompany a bolt torque table, a drill index chart for drilling and tapping, a conversion chart and a basic calculator. The “Pocket Ref” by Thomas J. Glover is a great all-in-one book with just about everything. "

This runs counter to everything I have been taught. The difference is all torque specs that I have encountered is the actual torque desired on the bolt. I have never heard of an application where specs was based on the force desired + the force of the thread resistance + the force required to overcome the resistance of the lugnut/wheel interface. Now I need a new chart just for wheel installation????? Nah, not enough to matter.

 

[Redbone]

I use anti seize on my lug nuts all the time!
I have been doing so for the last 26 years and NEVER
have I had any problems with lug nuts...
Even off road racing at 90 mph (OK, it doesn't sound that fast... But in a classic Mini!)
Anyway...

Here we go again!

(popcorn)(popcorn)(popcorn)

I fully agree. Do you torque your lugnuts and to what values?

 

[ThunderbirdJunkie]

anti-sieze is the devil when it comes to pretty much anything but lugnuts.

Period.

 

[BrenGun]

This is really the first time you have rotated the tires since you bought the "Lib" in 2005???

Really???

Wow!

You are special!

Nah, not the first time. We bought new tires a couple of years back, so this was really the first time that I've done it in about two years.

 

[BrenGun]

And thanks for all the replies. I had no idea that it would cause a mechanical engineering argument. I'm going out on a limb here and say that I am still going to use grease (a thin coating, mind you...) on the threads because I don't care about torque values as I don't use a torque wrench for the lug nuts. I've always done it by feel by hand and have never had a problem. The only real precautions that I take are that I re-check the lugs a few days later, but even then I've never encountered a loosened (or overly tightened) lugnut.
But I WILL definitely look into replacing the lugs as it does sound like they've been tweaked. Anyone know of any writeups on replacing them for a Lib? TIA

 

[Redbone]

And thanks for all the replies. I had no idea that it would cause a mechanical engineering argument. I'm going out on a limb here and say that I am still going to use grease (a thin coating, mind you...) on the threads because I don't care about torque values as I don't use a torque wrench for the lug nuts. I've always done it by feel by hand and have never had a problem. The only real precautions that I take are that I re-check the lugs a few days later, but even then I've never encountered a loosened (or overly tightened) lugnut.
But I WILL definitely look into replacing the lugs as it does sound like they've been tweaked. Anyone know of any writeups on replacing them for a Lib? TIA

Important part is you have gotten some useful information. If you don't use a torque wrench 2 situations to be avoided is 1- DO NOT tighten until it breaks and back off 1/4 turn or 2- DO NOT tighten until your nose bleeds from the strain. Before torque wrenches were invented I tightened mine only to a point that my wife could loosen.

I hope you don't mind us stealing your thread. This is about lugnuts but using other situations to put it into perspective. As you pointed out lugnuts aren't that particular. Also, I don't argue. I discuss. I exchange information. I defend my points .... and I enjoy it.

My son, Michael built his first engine when he was 14. It was a V6 Evinrude. The most recent V8s he built dynoed over 1000 h.p. He is a mechanical engineer working for ExxonMobil. He specializes in large rotating equipment. Michael has been sent to 3 other facilities to oversee rebuilding of their large compressors. Even with the vast experience I have in this I go to him for the very latest. So last night I email him with a question about this. Part of the answer I got

"As for getting a good torque value... the more I learn, the more I realize
I don't know. The difference in torque required to get a certain stretch
in a rusty dry bolt versus a new bolt with Moly lube is something like 4x.
So, to get the same stretch, you'd have to torque a rusty dry bolt to 100
ft-lb when the spec for a new bolt with moly lube would be 25 ft-lb."

If anyone thinks he/she can just read the needle and be happy think again.

 

[ThunderbirdJunkie]

anti-sieze is the devil when it comes to pretty much anything but lugnuts.

Period.

Stupidest statement ThunderbirdJunkie ever made.

He MEANT anti-sieze is the devil when it comes to anything but SPARK PLUGS.

Ugh.

 

[lil black liberty]

Stupidest statement ThunderbirdJunkie ever made.

He MEANT anti-sieze is the devil when it comes to anything but SPARK PLUGS.

Ugh.

Lol.. its all good TBJ.. I hate taking out Spark Plugs on the libby.. I'm just tall enough to change them out with out a little step helping me