Top-plate material discussion

[Auberon]

Tonys suggestion of steel seems most appropriate, if you have a lathe with a faceplate, not much of a job really.

I do hope you don't mond the following comments:

Polymers:
There are some really ****-bang bearing polymers out there that are strong in tension, torsion and have a tremendous frictional hardiness.....it might be wise, with respect to steer away from the thermosetting polymers, due to their tendency to be a tad less durable. The problem with splitting might result from when the nuts are torqued up properly, the PP's will easily split...as they are not do not do well in resisting compression.

Machining:
You could go thicker but you would also need to counter bore for the nuts/washers back to a 3/8 inch thickness at the base. However, this may be truly flying by the seat of your pants and I'm not sure there would be much gain. Wud also need to machine a tolerance for spanner access, too, making as simple job much more difficult.

This would not be to hard to machine on the faceplate.

Question re tolerancing:
Just out of curiosity, as the numbers in are inches and quoted to 3 dec places how significant is the tolerancing in these numbers.

Thanks and Cheers to you all
Auberon

 

[Ry' N Jen]

Tonys suggestion of steel seems most appropriate, if you have a lathe with a faceplate, not much of a job really.

I do hope you don't mond the following comments:

Polymers:
There are some really ****-bang bearing polymers out there that are strong in tension, torsion and have a tremendous frictional hardiness.....it might be wise, with respect to steer away from the thermosetting polymers, due to their tendency to be a tad less durable. The problem with splitting might result from when the nuts are torqued up properly, the PP's will easily split...as they are not do not do well in resisting compression.

Machining:
You could go thicker but you would also need to counter bore for the nuts/washers back to a 3/8 inch thickness at the base. However, this may be truly flying by the seat of your pants and I'm not sure there would be much gain. Wud also need to machine a tolerance for spanner access, too, making as simple job much more difficult.

This would not be to hard to machine on the faceplate.

Question re tolerancing:
Just out of curiosity, as the numbers in are inches and quoted to 3 dec places how significant is the tolerancing in these numbers.

Thanks and Cheers to you all
Auberon

Good post Auberon!

 

[Boiler]

Tonys suggestion of steel seems most appropriate, if you have a lathe with a faceplate, not much of a job really.

I do hope you don't mond the following comments:

Polymers:
There are some really ****-bang bearing polymers out there that are strong in tension, torsion and have a tremendous frictional hardiness.....it might be wise, with respect to steer away from the thermosetting polymers, due to their tendency to be a tad less durable. The problem with splitting might result from when the nuts are torqued up properly, the PP's will easily split...as they are not do not do well in resisting compression.

Machining:
You could go thicker but you would also need to counter bore for the nuts/washers back to a 3/8 inch thickness at the base. However, this may be truly flying by the seat of your pants and I'm not sure there would be much gain. Wud also need to machine a tolerance for spanner access, too, making as simple job much more difficult.

This would not be to hard to machine on the faceplate.

Question re tolerancing:
Just out of curiosity, as the numbers in are inches and quoted to 3 dec places how significant is the tolerancing in these numbers.

Thanks and Cheers to you all
Auberon

What is a lathe faceplate? That's a new one to me. I'm not a turning expert by any means.

You can't beat waterjet / laser / plasma cutting these with CNC though.

All that aside: how does machinging counterbores into a thicker plate do anything at all? The plate goes in between the strut assembly top plate and the jeep's top plate mounting metal. The nuts are on the other side of that metal. Unless you plan on counterboring the holes under the airbox / battery.

 

[tommudd]

Polymers do indeed work just for clarification
used the wifes cutting board and no problems to date. Over 3500 miles so far
Took all of 5 minutes maybe to cut them out , no splitting or anything
Did it as a JOKE since I have two sets of steel ones laying in the garage but wanted to show you don't need to spend 40 / 50 bucks \\/

 

[Selwyn]

Hi Tom

This one is not for me, never! I's rather pay Boiler. This sounds like a taxi here in SA which suffered from brake failure. Analysis revealed that the pads had worn out, a quickfix was done, added a piece of cardboard. Unluckily a number of passengers were seriously injured.

 

[Boiler]

Analysis revealed that the pads had worn out, a quickfix was done, added a piece of cardboard.

He's got a point. Playing with material selection can be tricky business and unforseen problems can arise. I'm not saying that your cutting boards for sure won't hold up, I'm just saying that people need to be careful with what they jerry-rig. I would never recommend making their own out of anything besides aluminum or steel because I don't want to be responsible on the off chance that they had a problem. Even if you don't provide the product, you're kind of morally responsible if you provide the means, know-how, and authority on its safety.

 

[tommudd]

Jerry rigging

Thats B S Boiler
Lets compare "real world experience" in building things for 4 WDs
A degree gets you nothing but something to hang on the wall
and how to copy others work

also so you think that the way a Frankenlift is designed is Jerry Rigging as well?
and come to think of it even using top plates would be Jerry Rigging it since it did not come from the factory that way, nor is a clevis lift, very bad idea since it raises the shock up out f the clevis , extra isolators above the rear springs = jerry Rigging
Do I need to go on with Jerry RiggingSHOCKED.gifKick.gif

 

[Boiler]

Thats B S Boiler
Lets compare "real world experience" in building things for 4 WDs
A degree gets you nothing but something to hang on the wall
and how to copy others work

Tom, as TonyCRD says, I wasn't personally attacking you, I was discussing the general use of jerry rigging. I merely am warning people about taking things into their own hands with material selection in general. I wouldn't recommend it is all. Also, I can imagine that cutting boards are made out of a variety of materials. While yours may be fine, another type might hold up for crap.

In fact, I try very hard in these forums not to personally attack anyone. It's bad for business, bad for friendships, bad for the board in general. You on the other hand seem to follow me around with snide remarks and have done so for about 1 year, I don't really get it. In person we seem to get along great but maybe that comes from being able to hide behind a screen.

You might think I'm a big "copier" but I made my roof rack the best way I could. There are a lot of differences, and the strength and geometry design is mine, not traced off of someone elses, but you seem to not be able to get over it. I'm not going to clutter up my design for the sole purpose of being different.

When I make my bumper, I'm sure you and others will cry foul, but if you look around in the world of aftermarket wrangler stuff, lots of them are basically the same, and half of them look a lot like RLF's, and probably a lot like what I'll make. But plenty of people will overlook obvious differences and cry foul if I make anything in the vicinity of what they do. I'm not going to do a tube bumper or ruin the functionality just to be different.

Finally, your quote above is spoken like someone that only has experience and no education in the matter. I've got the education and 12 years experience designing machinery with a variety of materials, for any number of customers, including military machines. I think I have earned the right to weigh in on material selection as much or more than most people on a jeep board. Is a medical degree just a piece of paper hanging on the wall? A law or pharmacy degree? It is a paper that recognizes a person's hard work and education. You obviously don't know what obtaining an engineering degree entails. I'm not a glorified draftsman.

Sorry, but an degreed engineer with broad design and fabrication experience > mechanic (or a public housing worker) when it comes to designing armor & structural members.

Note: I apologize to everyone else for you having to read this. I just am tired of a years worth of backhanded comments and snide remarks, which come after about every one of my technical / design / fabrication related posts, by the same person(s). I really hated writing this. But obviously he's got no interest in remaining on friendly terms anyway. However, like I told him before, tomorrow I'll be past this, I don't hold grudges. I doubt anything will change though.

 

[ThunderbirdJunkie]

Just for the record, there are many polymers which will work fine for this application.

It's ONLY being compressed, with very VERY minor deflection. If this were something that were going to experience tension, flexion, and all kinds of other -ions, ThunderbirdJunkie would agree that steel would be better, aluminum would be better...but, one thing we seem to be forgetting is CORROSION RESISTANCE. Aluminum and steel both have issues with corrosion when exposed to the elements and road salt. Plastics don't.

Delrin, commonly used in cutting boards because of its resilience, is an excellent choice because it's extremely dense, resists abrasion (not that that matters in this application) and is extremely stiff.

But what does ThunderbirdJunkie know, he plays with toy cars

 

[Ry' N Jen]

Just for the record, there are many polymers which will work fine for this application.

It's ONLY being compressed, with very VERY minor deflection. If this were something that were going to experience tension, flexion, and all kinds of other -ions, ThunderbirdJunkie would agree that steel would be better, aluminum would be better...but, one thing we seem to be forgetting is CORROSION RESISTANCE. Aluminum and steel both have issues with corrosion when exposed to the elements and road salt. Plastics don't.

Delrin, commonly used in cutting boards because of its resilience, is an excellent choice because it's extremely dense, resists abrasion (not that that matters in this application) and is extremely stiff.

But what does ThunderbirdJunkie know, he plays with toy cars

Ya, Molybdenum impregnated Delrin nylon works really well too!
Been using that in my Mini's for upper and lower control arm
bushings, tie rod end bushings, engine steady bushings, and
so forth and so forth... for years!

Cutting board have worked as well!

Better than the factory supplied rubber crap!

 

[Selwyn]

Back to Boilers comments. As a DIY enthusiast I take the best or closest to whatever I require, build it my way and personalize it. I believe Tony did this with the front suspension and so on. Be thankful that Boiler is prepared to share what I know will have been many many hours of research. If I want to use a material I need to do my research, if something goes wrong I have only myself to blame.

selwyn

 

[Ry' N Jen]

Back to Boilers comments. As a DIY enthusiast I take the best or closest to whatever I require, build it my way and personalize it. I believe Tony did this with the front suspension and so on. Be thankful that Boiler is prepared to share what I know will have been many many hours of research. If I want to use a material I need to do my research, if something goes wrong I have only myself to blame.

selwyn

Right on Brother!

There are so many materials available that you can use that it is just crazy!
I've played with stuff that some people have never herd of!
Even impressed my old man who worked on the very first Boeing 747 and a journeyman tool and die maker for 70+ years!

Too many options you can use...

Folks just ned to educate thenselves as far as what is available on this planit with 6... Close to 7 BILLION people!

New cool materials being developed everyday guys!

 

[Auberon]

Settle please gentlemen

As a tagged and bagged gingerbeer, I am offended also Boiler.
I not only reiterate Boilers comments regarding education, but I am thankful to Tony for the steady up to the forum.

Those points ot addressed to someone will know to whom it applies:
1 I am to the stage where I don't want to put anything out there as an idea....and I have lots that have NOT been done.
2 My piece of paper was not given to me as a copybook, AND it was in recognition of dammed hard work......and before the www when everyone could become an instant expert an Applied Degree was the only way in some parts of the world to be recognised as capable of the right basic research and application to the real world.
3 I, too, am tired of the aggression from certain parties seeming to be directed at certain parties.
4 I would never disrespect the achievements of DIYers.
5 I DIMyself.
6 Boiler, I would prefer to follow the laser, water or other machining processes IF that were available and sometimes it is. This can be a very remote country in which I live and it is wise to keep those basic skills quite well honed. I in no way question your choice of part production just offered it as an alternative. Its just that when a part is needed in a remote situation I am accustomed to machining properly out of materials of known properties which can more easily be had than the more advanced industrial processing.
We do not have the parts availability in this country that you fellows do. Of course if you have to, fencing wire will do in an emergency.

There are only just over 20 million of us in an area as big as the USA. Lathes and milling machines can be had if you carry with you the ability to turn or mill on the lathe you have a better possibility of getting back on the road unless you are near a bigger town or city or want to wait for weeks.

7 Boiler: re The faceplate - will get back to you I have just come in to cool down from some pretty heavy duty machining and found this. Might do that as another thread but I am a bit pushed for time (family issues next week).

8 Chaps, I was not criticising peoples' choice of materials, merely reminding that IF one is not aware of the properties of a polymer, then jerryrigging is potentially dangerous. How many can identify by sight HDPP, HDHTPE, or the thousand other polymers out there and do you know the tests.
Yes, one can generalise, just like when one is preparing to smith / forge a part from scratch to assess the materials properties from scrap but without a tremendous amount of knowledge and experience this, too, can be frought with danger. Materials that have been around for a while are much more predictable than those resulting from the mysterious and secretive petrochemical industry.

9 Thunderbirdjunkie all you did was reiterate the point I made early in this thread. Thanyou.

10 Not ALL polymers are food or indeed salt safe whereas an appropriate alloy of known characteristics can be selected to behave as expected, exhibiting reliably PREDICTABLE performance including corrosion resistance.

The action of salt crystals settling under the stud/nut during flexion and via capillary action could have horrendous consequences in terms of coefficients of friction and resultant abrasion under flex and time with the intermittent loadings.

Further, THE SNIDE COMMENTS HAVE TO STOP.

BOILER, I, too am offended because I fit into the same category as yourself. I would by choice, do my research and then preferring not to lose the shirt off my back make sure all parameters have been covered. Only training can do that. You get a head start if you really do study hard. Please don't apologise it was not just an affront to yourself.

I started out when the www was pie in the sky and the average person could not become an instant expert.

I would respectfully ask that certain chaps, please settle down and go with the positive flow that can be so enriching and indeed rewarding.

One thing I have learned is that I don't know it all and I have learned to learn....every single day.

Auberon

 

[Boiler]

One thing I have learned is that I don't know it all and I have learned to learn....every single day.

I think we'd all be better for holding to this motto. I might not come off like it sometimes but I'm well aware that I don't know everything. If you look back I've asked my share (or more!) of noob questions in here. My area of expertise is functional design and stress analysis, with a jack-of-all-trades minor in electric & hydraulic design, and fabrication.

Luckily I work with a guy that can make / fix just about anything. We're constantly butting heads when it comes to him wanting to use what we have on hand, and me insisting on getting the material that I think would be the perfect fit. It is a really good check & balance system, and we've both come a long way in many regards for having worked together so closely this year.

If we all do our best to try to avoid being offended by everything said, and avoid offending as much as possible, we'll get a hell of a lot more done. I personally have wasted far too much time arguing about materials on these web sites. It is just tough when you believe strongly in the capability of your designs, have education and experience to back it up, and joe shmoe comes along and shoots it full of imaginary holes with a 3 sentence comment. Now you've got an hour in a post defending your work.

 

[Auberon]

Woftam

Aye Boiler,
too much the WOFTAM.
Waste Of Fioking Time And Money
Cheers
Auberon