Snorkel caps facing forward...why?

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jnaut

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What about side-facing intake? That could be just a cutout on the body of the snork, with a rain hood. Wouldn't need the cobra-head-shaped intake at all, really. Just tossing an idea in the ring.....

Like I said, if you get out on the web, there are some home-fab units which don't have the cobra-head system at all. They use various road-warrior type designes which pull air at 360 deg.

Aren't there some KJ owners with snorkels on here? Any personal experiences with drain holes where you sat in water for a little while?
 

offrovering

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I would not close the drainhole, usually don't need to do that when installing a snorkel. You could get a one way valve though.

Forward is just to allow for air flow, because it is up higher, and also a longer travel for dust before the filter, you decrease the dust collection.

Some companies have them facing rear, such as mantec.

The snorkels with the cone shape on top help with particulates because of the cyclone type swirl they create with the air.

There are different needs for snorkels, most probably don't need one.

If you do, don't make one out of ******* pipe, or gutters. Ha
 

J-Thompson

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Seems to me like youre getting a little to excited about the whole matter.

IMHO, no, there is no reason other than 'ram air' to point the snorkel forward. The amount of rain that gets forced down the tube should easily drain out in the air box so that shouldnt be a problem. If you have the end of the snorkel pointed right at the filer then it may get wet.

If you pointed it backwards I would say there would be a mild vacuum created which would make the engine 'pull' the air in where if it were facing forward the air is there to be used by the engine.

Sure, there are many turns and bends before it gets to the engine but with that slight positive pressure from the air rushing into the opening then its not being pulled into the opening. It may not force air into the intake but it lets the intake get the air it needs easier.



This is the "right" answer
rear facing at highway speed = vacuum
forward facing in VERY dusty conditions = dirty air "forced" in
That means that you need to move it for the conditions at hand
highway driving = little dust so face it forward
back country driving = lots of dust so face it backwards that way when you are driving forward the dust blows on by

or common sense
 

WICKED KJ

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you know it really doesnt matter which way the snorkel if facing, but like JEEPJEEPSTER said, that is the most logic way. but when you look at all the water you go through though, make sure that distributor and coil packs dont get wet, cuz then you're just screwed
 

tommudd

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this is a funny thread go on and read up on some forums where people travel all over the world, like Expedition Portal and get the right answers, most on here have never had a snorkel and are only guessing on what works or doesn't work
 

jnaut

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this is a funny thread go on and read up on some forums where people travel all over the world, like Expedition Portal and get the right answers, most on here have never had a snorkel and are only guessing on what works or doesn't work

I'm assuming that traveling all over the world gives you some new perspectives on snorkels that using a snorkel domestically doesn't?

Just registered to that forum. Interesting to see people who actually take their landrovers... off road.
 
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jnaut

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Lot of home made snorkels. Me likey.

And I don't think this guy has skid plates.
 
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offrovering

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I'm assuming that traveling all over the world gives you some new perspectives on snorkels that using a snorkel domestically doesn't?

Just registered to that forum. Interesting to see people who actually take their landrovers... off road.

arent most 4x4's for mall cruising?
 

gmctd

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Ram-air is functional, and is effective - stick your hand out the window, palm horizontal, at 30mph^, note the pressure on your hand\arm - rotate your palm vertical, note the sudden pressure increase that forces your hand\arm rearward, requiring greater muscle effort to maintain position - compare that with the same effect when vehicle is motionless - that is ram-air pressure - compare the surface area of your palm to the inlet area of the snorkel

Further comparison for reference can be seen by removing the air filter, placing your palm in front of the engine air inlet in the airbox, but not completely blocking airflow (that'll hurt!!) - slowly rev the engine, noting the increasing pull on your palm as the engine pumps more and more air - when that pull requires as much muscle effort as sticking your palm out the window at forward vehicle movement, your engine has reached the volume of pumped intake where ram-air is not effective - relative, of course, to engine rpm and mph

Part of that effect when moving is the air flowing against your palm, having nowhere to go, rushes up and over either side of your hand, creating a low-pressure area behind your hand

Same effect with the snorkel - forward-facing allows some of the higher-pressure flow into the opening and down into the engine - rear-facing into the reduced-pressure area behind the snorkel reduces flow, similarly.

Note the placement of the tailpipe outlet - same concept: high pressure area in front of the vehicle, low pressure area behind the vehicle - this promotes increased airflow thru the engine: intake in the higher pressure area up front, compression, combustion, exhaust in the lower pressure area behind - even lower pressure is available behind either rear tire, one reason for placing tailpipes in that area

(Another reason is that catalytic convertors turn gasoline combustion byproducts into H2SO4, which resulted in peeling paint, oxidized aluminum, rusted metal, peeling chrome on vehicles, resulted from blowing exhaust gasses directly out into the path of any vehicles on the road behind any other vehicles - side-exit tailpipes resulted in less-direct dispersal by blowing into the faster-flowing air either side of moving vehicles)

Ram-air is effective, until displaced airflow thru that big air-pump under the hood exceeds the volume of ram-air entering the inlet, usually at high-rpm, particularly in racing, where high surface-speeds require spoilers at the rear to decrease turbulence behind the vehicle - the following vehicle, drafting the lead vehicle, takes advantage of that effect by running in the area of reduced turbulence, also suffers due to losing the pressure effect, losing any ram-air effect - at those speeds, airflow thru the engine can approach, even exceed airflow across the vehicle, so the draft effect can gain some advantage

It may be seen that, at lower than racing speeds, engine at fwot, as in standing-start drag-racing, engine displaced airflow way exceeds ram-air flow, so the effect is nil or reduced at lower speeds - however, at normal engine rpms, commensurate with normal forward vehicle speeds, any slight ram-air effect advantage gained from forward-facing air inlet far exceeds the reduced-pressure effect from rear-facing air inlet

Any moisture collected by the snorkel, being denser than air, will sling out of the airflow at any curve and bend, and should exit out of the drain holes in the ducting and airbox - however, it should be noted that those holes also allow moisture into the air path in extremely wet conditions, particularly when fording streams - goes without saying that depth is critical - however, speed is just as critical, as resulting splash is just as effective as submersal, where splash has same effective pressure as is created by any forward movement thru the water which results in splash.

Stack'em high, face'em foward for best results, slightly down-facing to reduce water-ingestion when standing still in rainy weather - wouldn't want yer sealed-for-fording airbox to fill with sky-water overnite, eh............
 
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WICKED KJ

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wow the tension is amazing on here. al of this for some SNORKEL talk. (popcorn)
 

gmctd

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Good comparison, altho that more describes an exhaust stack, where exhaust pressure blows the flapper open - however, HMMWV's are designed for slow off-roading and fording (driver-dependent, of course) - at higher surface speeds such as civilian Jeeps will encounter, airflow across the straight stack inlet will result in low-pressure at the inlet, similar to what happens with the rear-facing elbow - a closed-top stack with screened opening(s) in the vertical surface near the top could prolly work out best, but does not look as aggressive as the forward-facing scoop - and, as we all know, appearance is everything
 
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jnaut

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To wit:

What is it? Ram air just means using a forward-facing air intake to gain some extra intake pressure. We have all, as children, felt the pressure of moving air on our hands when we held them out the window of the family car. When moving air is brought smoothly to rest, the energy of its motion is converted into pressure. Motorcycles went through a "ram-air" period in the early 1990s, during which street bikes were equipped with the forward-facing "rocket-launcher" engine air intakes seen on many road-racing machines.

While it's appealing to imagine the forward velocity of a car being converted into free supercharge, the actual air pressure gain is extremely small at normal speeds. For example, at 150 mph, the pressure gain when air is efficiently brought to rest is 2.75 percent. Because this is a dynamic effect, it is proportional to the square of the air velocity. At a more realizable automobile speed of 75 mph, the effect (again with 100 percent efficient conversion of velocity into pressure) will be only one-quarter as great — that is, just under seven-tenths of one percent.

In fact, velocity energy is not converted into pressure at 100 percent efficiency. A figure of 75 percent efficiency is usual, which reduces our notional ram-air gain at 75 mph to one-half of one percent.

Therefore, at normal speeds, ram air is a myth. However, something much more interesting lies behind it, ignored by the advertiser's busy pen. That something is airbox resonance.


The bottom line that is missed by car enthusiasts about "ram air" is that whatever increased 'air pressure' you get by 'blowing harder' into the air intake is lost by all the stuff between the intake and the engine.

If you look at 'ram air' ducts for cars, they're shaped DISTINCTLY DIFFERENTLY than a Jet Engine-- an engine design which actually uses 'ram air'. Of course the Jet Engine uses ram air at speeds greater than 300mph, and also uses a honking big powerful fan to draw it in at incredibly high speeds. Speeds much higher than 30mph.

Most of what I've read from people who've studied this issue seriously is that on normal cars with 'ram air attachments', whatever gains are being made are from colder air being brought into the intake, not any effect of higher air pressure.
 

jnaut

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- a closed-top stack with screened opening(s) in the vertical surface near the top could prolly work out best, but does not look as aggressive as the forward-facing scoop - and, as we all know, appearance is everything

Hey man, I love big forward-facing scoops and all kinds of ram-airey looking devices. For the record, when I get my snorkel, mine will be facing forward. 'Cause I wanna look like the kool kidz too.
 

gmctd

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The significant thing that is being overlooked is that the volume of air that is not 'brought smoothly to rest', the air that is being ingested by a running infernal combustion engine, is flowing air - imagine this as having a big hole in the middle of your palm, hand out the window in the airflow: some airflow goes over and under your hand, some goes thru the hole - and, while the effect is not equal to mechanical supercharging, it does help the flow of air thru the inlet ducting, down to the throttle plate(s), (if ya got'em), and inward - this increases airflow compared to that which is available to stock air intake systems under the hood - conversely, the rear-facing scoop reduces airflow, compared to stock - while the effect prolly will not make yer Jeep a land-speed record holder, it is more effective than stock, in addition to cold-air ehancement

Slam the throttle plates shut at speed, and the effective 'static' pressure in the snorkle will increase as engine airflow slows to idle volume

In any system, when supply flowrate exceeds demand flowrate, pressure is resulted (Baro + X) - system pressure drops as demand flowrate approaches supply flowrate (Baro + delta X) - when demand flowrate equals supply flowrate, system pressure is zero, in this case, Baro @~15psia - when demand flowrate exceeds supply flowrate, system pressure becomes negative (vacuum, or less than Baro) - thus, the results in race cars, where engine intake flowrate (inlet airspeed) approaches flowrate\airspeed of air over the racecar at high forward surface speed of the racecar thru the air

Inlet ducting diameter, bends, curves, and angles, air filter(s), airbox - everything in the intake path increases resistance to airflow thru the path - every little bit of assistance you can set up to overcome that resistance does help

Slightly increased pressure at the intake inlet, plus slightly reduced pressure at the exhaust outlet makes for improved naturally-aspirated efficiency
 
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jnaut

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Whelp, spent the last coupla weeks at ExpeditionPortal.com (thanks tommud, excellent forum) and got a good dose of how people's snorkels are set up. All over the map. Some have side-facing intakes, but a lot of "mushroom" types and some of those have "pre-cleaners". So apparently, some of those expedition "experts" do feel the need to pre-clean the dust out of the air before it heads down the snorkel pipe.

For you guys (like me) who are overland expedition types, as opposed to the "I can make it over this " obstacle kind of guys, that's an excellent board.

Plus, you get to see some rigs which are a little off the beaten path, so to speak.
 
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