Exasperated KJ Owner! Requires brain transplant or sledge hammer!

Discussion in 'KJ General Discussion' started by Corky KJ, Jan 13, 2020.

  1. Corky KJ

    Corky KJ Daft as a brush!

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    Not sure if it has, though you make a good point in that it's supposed to prevent shudder on shut down. It does, although not always, shudder. The noise I am hearing is very similar to the Zafira and was using the likeness just to try and help with a description. I will have a good look but mine ha deffinately got the single vein turbo as there is nothing else around as you described save for the wee paper filter.

    I will have a good look when I replace the stat on Monday as I will have half the stuff out of the way anyway.

    Thanks again

    Chris
     
  2. Corky KJ

    Corky KJ Daft as a brush!

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    Sorry been away for a while with work so here's a catch up.

    I gave up in the end and started a fresh. I replaced the crank, cam and air sensors all with Bosch as per the system. Still to no avail.

    So, from there, replaced mechanical fuel pump with a fully reconditioned unit. The car fired up straight away after bleeding etc. So was smiling from ear to ear as it's one hell of a job.

    The car was great for 3 days then....you guessed it, back to normal. Fires up when it feels like it. That said though, it's more intermittent now than it ever was. I.e. one day it will be fine all day, next it wont. This is a far cry from issues every day.

    I double checked the timing to make sure I wasn't a tooth out, but when doing the job I used the cam and crank locator tools so as suspected, no issues with that.

    To be fair, it starts within a couple of turns first thing even at minus 3 we had the other day, just gets worse as the day goes on. I have also fitted an LP electrical fuel pump as described earlier, right up against the tank end.

    Checked I have the inket and outlet fuel lines the right way too.

    Heeeellllp lol
     
  3. turblediesel

    turblediesel memberable

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    You've been very busy!

    One plus on the export version is an access panel in the floor of the baggage compartment that lets you reach the top of the tank, (where the lift pump is, or isn't), without dropping the tank like the US version. There's a press connector there that might let air into the fuel line. Some folks have replaced the connector with fuel line and hose clamps. Any in-line fuel pump should only run single digit PSI, (5-6 rings a bell), and be a "fail open" type so fuel can pass if the pump dies or loses electricity. Some others have used clear fuel line at the filter assembly to see if bubbles are present. Bleeding air at the filter using the hand pump is always worth a try .... back soon
     
  4. turblediesel

    turblediesel memberable

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    back ...when problems happen and bleeding air at the fuel rail after major work has got some stubborn ones going.

    Cold start issues are common after the ceramic (engine destroying) glow plugs have been replaced with metal 5 or 7 volt glow plugs. Current hot pick is the Bosch 5 volt plugs without any change to the glowplug control module or programming. Still not as good as the ceramics except for the destructive possibilities. Sasquatch sells a heating element that fits near the FCV (Flow Control Valve) unless my government made them stop that too.

    Personally I would go with the brain transplant at this point. You'll want Billwill's brain, not mine.
     
  5. turblediesel

    turblediesel memberable

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    Popular inline pump is Facet #40109 at 4-7 psi.

    In-tank pump runs 10-12 psi.
     
  6. Billwill

    Billwill Full Access Member

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    These early Export CRDs use 11 volt glow plugs.
    They have two big relays in the Relay Box Under the hood which send +12 volts directly to the glow plugs...1 volt gets dropped over the various connectors.

    The ECU does not monitor the voltage on the glow plugs but if you pull a relay out it posts an error as would a shorted-out relay coil.

    Supposedly the ECU pulses the glow plugs with Pulse width Modulation for a few seconds but I would need an Oscilloscope to prove that.

    I have never touched my glow plugs after all these years but in this warm climate I have tried pulling out both relays in Winter!
    Starts with a bit of a ratttle and smoke but fires up!

    I read some posts a long time ago from some Austrian KJ Owners who were not happy with their glow plug setups and were looking into retro-fitting the previous 12 volt system.;)

    I have had many wiring problems with my CRD but none of them were heat related!

    I would take a hairdryer all over the Jeep to see if anything changes...used to do this on failing Computers and would use Freon spray for errors when cold!:)

    BTW only the early Export KJs had this removable cover over the fuel tank in the Cargo Bay...from 2005 I think they stopped it.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2020
  7. Billwill

    Billwill Full Access Member

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    If you do have the Butterfly Flap mechanism in front of your Intake Manifold I would suggest you remove the flap to see if that makes a difference. Most Lost CRD owners have done this!

    The plastic gears get a crack in them so sometimes it jams and sometimes it moves....maybe jams when its hot or maybe it jams when coldo_O
     
  8. turblediesel

    turblediesel memberable

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    Bbrraaiinnss...braains...brraiins...

    It's a zombie thing.
     
  9. Corky KJ

    Corky KJ Daft as a brush!

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    OK back again,

    I have had the tank competely off this time, cleaned it all out (not much crap in it at all, beauty of plastic tanks) I have also had the turbo off and, as suspected, it is not a variable vane. All seemed ok with it though, no loose bearings and no whistling or smoke to indicate an issue. Cleaned all the soot etc out of the egr all sparkly new looking. I have no issues with this side of the motor now in my eyes any way ha ha ha ha ha. You guys may still have.

    I will most definately be re fitting the fuel lines to the tank with sweated pipe and clips to make sure a tight seal, although, I did use some clear hose to check for air on the tank to filter pipe. I also noted, that through the period when switched off, the fuel was draining back to the tank. Although she is now back to starting first thing, and I have refitted the non return valve, there is obviously air getting in somewhere to allow back drain.

    That to me though, doesnt make sense that it starts no prob first thing, then, after a run, wont go for anyone, but fires straight up on easy start (I HATE THAT STUFF!) and runs like a dream from there on in until you stop, and back to square 1.

    I have also put clear fuel pipe from the filter to the pump intake, again, I can see no air at all, even after the drain back on the tank to filter line from the filter. To try and cure this, I bypassed the filter had a non return valve connecting the pipes, it still had drain back so suspect even more the connectors at the tank end are fcuk'd. Just seems daft there is no air though.

    I am begining to wonder whether a gallon of petrol and a match may do the trick!! Silly as it sounds, it had its anual test and passed the emmision check with flying colours, so I cannot see it being the injectors.

    I also note, there are no other wires at the tank end, other than those for the sender unit. If I get the 'in tank' pump, is this just the one connection for both?

    As a bit of a side laugh, I have just recieved my new hearing aids, and I heard for the very first time, hissing from around the pump. To my detriment and unprofesionalism, I did not replace the copper washers on the banjo's. (What a pillock I am) however, the hiss has now gone having done the deed, but the issue still remains.

    Also, a really stupid question, where the hell is the throttle body with the butterfly valve in it? (If thats what it is?)

    This has to be the worlds most crazy thing on a car. I have NEVER had an issue like this, working on evry diesel you can imagine from huge trucks to bloody ships when I was in the Navy. Talk about wrecking ones head ........................................

    All the best guys
     
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  10. turblediesel

    turblediesel memberable

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    Stupid question?!, I got this! The butterfly valve, called the Flow Control Valve(FCV), is bolted to the cast elbow on the glowplug side. The other end of the cast elbow is bolted to the intake/cam carrier. Remove the butterfly and unplug the electric connection and stripped plastic gears, noises, and wrong positions won't ever happen.

    The wiring for an intank pump ends below the left rear seat under the carpet. Sasquatch sells a ready made harne$$ or you can cobble your own together from a wiring harness taken from a gasoline engined Liberty/Cherokee junker which will need modification with pin-connectors from Mouser Electronics or any electrical supply place that sells that stuff. Pin removal tool might be needed as the pinouts are different. I'm a bit vague on it since I haven't done it on mine. Relay and fuse are already in your Jeep. Jeep skipped the pump to make the thing affordable or some other stupid reason. LOSTJEEPS has all the correct info on all the bits and pieces and how-to.

    Early on you mentioned you'd shuffled injectors around. No big deal but they were checked for flow and the computer was programmed to trigger an equal amount into each cylinder. I don't think this could cause your no start problem. Just mentioning it.

    It's also possible to swap the #4 injector electrical connector with the (rail pressure sensor?). You might want to check the wire colors there although, again, I don't think this would keep it from starting. Also the pressure sensor connector can be damaged if it contacts the firewall when the engine is jacked up to replace motor mounts.

    Wiring faults can be a problem. Usually behind the fuel filter assembly and anywhere the octopus of wiring on top of the engine has been strained by anyone trying to remove the intake/cam-carrier.

    Someone on this forum with a gasoline engine had a problem with hot starting which turned out to be a fuel pressure sensor. Pressure was dropping while driving but everything checked out fine. I'll look for the thread. (RodMac thread "2006 Liberty cranks but will not start when warm but OK when cold")

    Do you have any way to tap into the OBD2 system and get readings? Torque App rings a bell but that stuff is too mysterious for me. LOSTJEEPS will have a lot on that, it's the CRD brain trust. Don't spend on Scangauge; it doesn't work well with the CRD. Forgets everything when the key turns off and needs to be set up every time.

    I hope any of this helps. I hate the sneaky gremlins that can't be seen.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2020
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  11. Billwill

    Billwill Full Access Member

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    I did not think this KJ has the butterfly valve...hence why I asked the question. OP has just confirmed that this is a non-variable turbo such as I have.

    I am just about to fit a new airfilter...in the process of changing all fluids...and will look for this Butterfly...doubt it is there one on our old fixed-tubo Jeep!;)

    OK I have just fitted a new air-filter and definitely no butterfly to be seen on my old CRD!
    There is no "butterfly" to be seen on these early fixed-vane turbos but I did not strip the whole assembly down to have a better look other than removing the CAC hoses.

    The rubber input pipe goes directly onto the input of the air-filter housing.
    The 2002 Parts Fiche does show a short"non Serviced"metal tube going between the rubber hose and the air-filter that appears to show a sensor with cable attached called a "Sensor package Air Flow Meter (NOT SERVICED)". I do not believe this part was ever introduced...maybe some form of "MAF" sensor pre-cursor!o_O

    The parts Fiche does show some common parts to the Gasser as far as the Fuel Cap is concerned...maybe undo the fuel cap in case any vacuum is being created!

    On my 2002 Fixed-Vane turbo the Waste Gate is vacuum operated by a black plastic solenoid mounted next to the airfilter with two wires connected and two small rubber pipes to activate the "Waste Gate..EGR."
    The two wires cannot be disconnected but one of the small rubber pipes can be pulled off, a very small self-tapping screw fitted into the plastic female hole to block it and the rubber pipe re-inserted over the screw top....use the outer nipple!

    This is a "EGR delete" mod that TonyCRD suggested years ago to improve performance. I have been running this for several years and it does slightly improve performance with slightly worse fuel consumption.
    Maybe the OP should try this as the Wastegate may be jamming sometimes causing problems!:(

    No chance of finding an OBD Reader for this Jeep...runs purely on a PCI Bus that no owners have ever procured!
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2020
  12. turblediesel

    turblediesel memberable

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    Verrry different! No wastegate on the US version.
     
  13. Billwill

    Billwill Full Access Member

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    Yes definitely no Wastegate on the USA models and on the Export CRDs from I believe 2004 sometime when the CRD went to variable-vane Turbo....just wanted to confirm with the OP that his 2003 Export definitely has fixed-vane turbo!
    This troublesome CRD must have: Bad Cam/Crank/Map sensors....been replaced. Fuel problems:...Bosch CP3 pump has been replaced and I think In-tank pump fitted.
    Wiring issue: Never seen wiring issues that are heat related!

    I have pretty much run out of ideas...as I stated before heat-related problems can sometimes be narrowed down with a hair-dryer, or Heat Gun, being blown onto the Sensors, ECM, fuel lines etc.

    Unless there is a donor vehicle nearby to swap parts out then the idea of a can of gasoline and a match may be the answer!:(
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2020
  14. Leeann

    Leeann Full Access Member

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    I've only read this page of the thread (yeah, I know....) and I have a gasser, but wasn't there something about an upgraded filter head because the original introduced air no matter what you did? I seem to remember discussions about that on LOST.
     
  15. turblediesel

    turblediesel memberable

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    Yep, you're right. Plastic filter head melted around fuel heater wires introducing air. "Gen 2" filter head is cast metal. We covered that and I think the export models came with a better quality Racor filter head. Air can get in the fuel lots of places since the in-tank lift pump got left out. The snap together fuel line connections are designed to seal when pressurized from within the line. Mine only sucks air at -30°.
     
  16. Billwill

    Billwill Full Access Member

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    Yes the early Export Crds have a neat metal Raycor filter head that does not have any problems with the fuel heater element.

    I gave the OP the link to all the 2002 KJ manuals with especially the additional "2.5-2.8 export diesel" section that really covers these early CRDS well.

    Section 14 of these additional manuals gives a very comprehensive explanation of the Fuel System.
    Only problem I have is that they tell you to pump the fuel filter plunger until it gets hard. I find that it helps to pump the plunger until it gets hard then crack open the 13mm Brass nut next to it to let fuel/air escape.

    The manual gives a good explanation of how to check for fuel leaks with the use of cardboard sections so as not to cut yourself with the high pressure and also to wear glasses!
    The manual also explains that the Dealers can use their DBIII unit to completely check the fuel flow....much as I hate Dealers they are the only ones with this equipment.
    The fuel filter head has a Water-in-fuel container at the lower end which is supposed to set a warning light when it gets full...maybe that warning light is not working!
    Also the Fuel Heater may be overdoing its job....pull out the Relay for this Fuel Heater when the engine is hot and see what happens.
    Also remove the fuel cap in case there is vacuum there.

    So I suggest the Dealers check out the fuel flow and we get the latest CEL codes....still may be a wiring error!

    On my virtually identical model I have only had a problem with a dirty fuel filter and some leakage on the low-pressure fuel line near to the Fuel head.
    The MAP sensor is a very delicate sensor checking both temperature and pressure...I know it has been replaced but make sure it is always clean..I use Brake Cleaner Spray.

    The Aussie forum www.ausjeepoffroad.com has plenty owners of these early Export models..."glend" is the Resident Expert there!;)
     
  17. Corky KJ

    Corky KJ Daft as a brush!

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    Afternoon chaps,

    Blimey! That was a lot to take in. I've had my old man around (just before we went on lock down over here because of Corona V) and we have had the good old circuit tester out again just to double check everything. What we found strange was that if we took the sensor off the back of the fuel pump, cleaned it or not (we did it twice) the bloody thing fired up first time. It would then start straight away once or twice then back to square 1 again. So, we put an old switch on the connector whilst the new was still formly fixed to the pump. Wouldnt start, put thewire back on....vrooom a couple of times again. He recons therefore, as you do Billwill that the switch is a ok.

    Bear in mind, I still have not got the other filter head done as yet and still running on an in line one. All the connectors are taped up. Also bear in mind, it was running absolutley fine with this set up for a good six months, so can't see this being the issue
     
  18. Corky KJ

    Corky KJ Daft as a brush!

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    Back again,

    Rechecked everything as I am in lockdown over here so bugger all else to do except avoid being murdered by the Mrs:) being constantly under her feet :mad:.

    So being in the man shed is doing me the world of good, if not sometimes very frustrting.

    Sooo, I decided to double check EVERTHING I have done so far. I was horrified when I saw the cambelt. It would seem by the state of it, I must have not quite got it square on the drive teeth on something and its eaten away the edge of it. by the rest of the imprint on the belt teeth, it looks like I didn't get it square on throughout the pullies. All I can say is PHEWWWWW that I spotted it. That said, it was still in sync. What I did notice though, was that I miss timed the fuel pump. Even after the three spin of the crank it was 90 out. Having read a pile of threads on this stating it doesn't need timing and then a pile that says it does, I am unsure. I recon though, If timing guide marks are there, then to me, logically it needs doing. This is MY fault entirely being a bit of a derrr brain moment.

    So waiting for the new belt to come to refit. (bit cheaper as I dont need the pully's etc) Still an expensive and very stupid mistake!

    Have checked for the butterfly and nope, not got one so thats that out the way.

    Having traced all the wires back as far as we can, again, we have not found any continuity issue from the tests. My old man, was sat gazing at the schematic on the Service Manual Billwill sent me, for ages. Writing complete gobbledy gook (to me anyhow) and then buggered off in the garage for an hour.......sod that! It completely baffles me unless its a plane old switch, + and - easy fix.

    I have also got hold of an in tank pump of an identical car, but alas, again someone has had the filter casing off it....swines....

    I can wire this quite easily as I have the right connectors for each end as I asked the scrappy to chop them off with as much cable as they can so I can do a graft.

    One thing really baffling me and forgot to mention much earlier. I ended up, for some reason with two MAF sensors. all with the same number as the original. When I put the new ones in, doesn't matter which, the power drops dramatically especially going up hill. Put the old one back in and she flies up. I can't see two original parts being busted / faulty. Does this have a bearing on my issue?

    Achhh well, if all else fails, I shall re join the Navy and go and play with the anti clockwise Deltics, much more fun........and baffling when repairing as everything goes backwards! A bit like me and my Jeep :po_O
     
  19. Corky KJ

    Corky KJ Daft as a brush!

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    Forgot to ask, does anyone know where the hell I can get the handbrake mounting plates from. looked everywhere on the internet and can't find a single one!

    Cheers
     
  20. turblediesel

    turblediesel memberable

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    What's an anti-clockwise Deltic?

    Are the handbrake mounting plates you're after the ones on the rear axle or up under the handbrake lever?

    Good you spotted your frayed timing belt! Maybe your CP3 fuel pump got mistimed when you swapped the new one in? There is a reason to time it, something related to peak pressure at injector firing moments but nothing that would cause a no-start. Most folks give a new belt a short run with the belt cover off to "stretch" the new belt and then retension it before buttoning it all up. The water pump often gets replaced since it's life expectancy is shorter than two timing belts.

    It's apples and oranges but my parts jeep had it's serpentine belt tensioner at a huge angle to the plane of the belt and pulleys because it was worn out. Without tension it looked good as a new part. Perhaps a worn timing belt tensioner acts the same under tension introducing a fraying angle?