Exasperated KJ Owner! Requires brain transplant or sledge hammer!

Discussion in 'KJ General Discussion' started by Corky KJ, Jan 13, 2020.

  1. Corky KJ

    Corky KJ Daft as a brush!

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    OK, New here so please bear with me. Without being cheeky, I have read every forum concerning this issue, tried everything suggested and having given them all a try, they work for a week and then back to normal.

    So the issue is the 2.8 year 03 KJ diesel will not start for love nor money when hot. A quick squirt of easy start and away she goes like a train. Runs sweet as a nut, no smoke, misfires splutters nothing. Not even the infamous diesel knock!

    Crank and cam sensors done (Factory originals) Injectors re conned by reputable factor, fuel lines replaced, HP sensors both on common rail and pump replaced, fuel filter and fuel lines together with leak off pipes and seals. Fuel pump replaced with reconditioned pump (mechanical) again, reputable firm doing the work.

    This is now really doing my head in! Costing more in easy start than the fuel itself ha ha ha..

    I live in bonny Scotland where its generally cold and wet and that's a good summer!

    Starts like a dream from cold, (minus 7 the other day with a howling gale blowing right through it, couple of clicks of the glow plugs and a couple of cranks and away she went, so glow plugs not an issue here.

    I submit to your superior knowledge and knowhow

    Alll the best
    Corky
     
  2. Billwill

    Billwill Full Access Member

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    Have you read out any stored CEL codes?

    A dirty MAP sensor can cause weird problems.
     
  3. Corky KJ

    Corky KJ Daft as a brush!

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    Thanks for your swift reply Billwill.

    This does not seem t have one? I assume you mean between the air box and intake?

    As for codes, there isn't a single one comes up. We even tried a couple of different computers to make sure...Arggggggggggg this is doing my brain in ha ha ha
     
  4. Corky KJ

    Corky KJ Daft as a brush!

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    I will, as we speak, go and take a look though as it is one thing never been mentioned, but worth a peek
     
  5. Corky KJ

    Corky KJ Daft as a brush!

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    Just had a look and doesn't look like there is anything remotely MAP sensor looking anywhere. However, whilst looking, I noticed at the bottom (Engine end) of the air intake pipe, what seems like a hose similar to a leak off pipe. This looks like its going to the turbo but cannot be certain as its pitch black and torchlight can be deceiving. The pipe looks knackered and badly frayed and wet. What I have also just noticed as well, is that the (what I think is the fuel warmer, looks like an aircon pump but isn't at the top left pulley) is engaging and having rattled the wire, there is now a loud 'click' when I turn the engine off. Still wont start without the good ole etha though.

    This is so weird.....
     
  6. turblediesel

    turblediesel memberable

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    The tube coming off the air intake hose goes to the "hockey puck" crankcase breather on the cam cover, exhaust side. This runs crud into the air intake which rots the intake hose. Sometimes it's disconnected to hang down open; "elephant hose mod". Maybe a bad sensor reading due to unplugged hole in air intake hose or rotted hole.

    There's a metal tube that comes down from the turbo into the block. That's just oil return, they sometimes drip.

    The "aircon" gadget is probably the viscous cabin heater which engages to churn the coolant enough to cause friction/heat and warm the cabin when it's cold. As useless and theoretical as the old aircooled VW heaters.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2020
  7. Billwill

    Billwill Full Access Member

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    To find the MAP sensor you need to remove the plastic engine cover and the metal bar crossing over the engine....three 10mm nuts.
    Then move aside the wire harness....three 10mm nuts and on the LHS ie. passenger side of your Jeep you will see a black module the size of a matchbox bolted face down on the manifold. This will have a Bosch Logo on the top of it.
    The Export CRD such as you and I have has the MAP sensor bolted in place with two small bolts requiring an Allen Key to remove.
    USA/Canada CRDs have a similar looking module but it is held in place by a single larger bolt.

    Carefully unplug the sensor and remove it.
    Check the rubber O Ring seal is in good condition.
    Treat the MAP sensor with care....no brushes or Turpentine etc. to clean it...I use Brake Cleaner Spray to clean it out....they get pretty dirty!

    If you feel you need to replace it you can get it from your local Bosch Suppliers....the PN is stamped on it.

    If you cannot get stored codes read out by the Dealers you can use the "key" trick to get codes out on the early KJs.

    The USA model require you to switch the ignition key ON/OFF 3 times but our Export models require 4 ON/OFF actions

    Without starting the engine, rapidly turn the ignition ON/OFF 4 times. After the 4th ON action leave the ignition ON.
    The Odometer Display will start displaying 4 digit codes in sequence from the oldest to the newest....write them all down!

    The sequence ends with the current mileage displayed.

    The "key" method has some problems.

    The codes cannot be erased using this method.
    A code is only displayed once even if it is happening constantly.
    The last two digits can sometimes be transposed...I have not seen this but apparently a code of P0123 could be displayed as P0132 which could confuse if that is a valid code.

    The last few codes displayed will be relevant to you...the first codes are ancient history and have probably fixed themselves.

    The early KJs use a PCI Bus for its communications and Code Readers for PCI are difficult to find...my local Bosch Dealers took one look at the Bosch ECM in my 2002 2.5 CRD and shook their heads. I deliberately cause an Error to use as a Bookmark so that any new codes will display after my Bookmark. My 2002 2.5 CRD uses 11 volt glow plugs...no controller but two large Relays under the hood. I pull one relay out and it causes an error when starting...that is my bookmark. You can also pull out the Viscous Heater Relay to cause an error.

    Once you have the latest codes... download the 2002 Jeep KJ Service Manuals at the Link below. Covers Diesel and Gas models.
    At the same time you MUST download the section "2.5_2.8 export diesel" which covers our Export CRDS well.....there is a section that lists your Error Codes and directs you on what action to take! The Flow Charts for the Errors call for the DRBIII Reader that the Dealers use but you can follow their other advise such as measuring voltages at certain points.

    www.colorado4wheel.com/manuals/Jeep/KJ/
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2020
  8. Corky KJ

    Corky KJ Daft as a brush!

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    Guys, thank you so much for all this info. This is much more than I have ever been given! Brilliant.
    I am a former mechanic from the old days 'points and condenser and in line / rotary pumps' days. I came out of the industry some 25 years ago now and boy have things changed! Ironically I used to be a breakdown mechanic and used to have a restart from breakdown rate of 98%....not any more o_O:(:rolleyes:.....

    I will crack on with it in a wee while, thankfully have the stuff Billwill has referred to has already been removed since I changed the pump. Didn't see much point in putting it all back until every thing is working again properly.

    So 'Cover me' I'm GOING IN!! If you hear screams in the distance, its probably me, even though you are in SA and me in UK.
    Thanks again chaps, very appreciated.
     
  9. Corky KJ

    Corky KJ Daft as a brush!

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    Guys, now had a look, and found the MAP as described, however this one was held in by one allan bolt (not sure if this has any bearing on advice you have kindly given so far).

    Removed it and wooooooow! Surprised it ran at all! It was so thick in crud you would not believe. Anyhow, half a can of contact cleaner later, all shiny and new looking.

    Put back in, checked seal etc, car still wouldn't start! Bugger! That said though, when I started it up with the magic spray, it actually ran so much quieter than normal....RESULT on one thing then.

    As all the gubbins was out of the way, I decided to remove the pressure switch at the back of the fuel pump, (really easy with the rubber intake pipe removed), again, checked the 'o' rings cleaned and replaced. Bled system and vroom....away she went. Took her for a spin, about 6 miles, came back switched off, tried again, NOTHING....BUGGER again!

    So, I am now wondering if a combo of things, although fuel pump replaced with recon as mentioned earlier, if the pressure switch is the ultimate culprit? At 100 quid, they are a bit steep in price so would rather, again, seek your learned advice.

    Guys, once again, I am so appreciative of your help. There are humans out there! You have proved it from the other end of the world:):):D
     
  10. Corky KJ

    Corky KJ Daft as a brush!

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    I completely agree ref the Heater, useless! The car has always run at a 1/4 on the heat gauge despite a new thermostat. Cabin temp is ok so not too worried. Took a look at the hose from the breather and yes, slightly rotten. Seems to have good vacuum though so unsure if split. Another project :confused::confused::rolleyes:.

    Honestly though, and I know I keep saying it, but you guys have been the dogs Bks giving proper advice instead of replace this that and the other. More sensical approach to weeding out the issue.

    Cheers
     
  11. Billwill

    Billwill Full Access Member

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    OK weird for me that your Export 2003 CRD has the 1 bolt MAP....must have changed that in 2003 when they went to the 2.8 L motor with variable vane turbo.

    You still need to pull the CEL codes out of the ECM...either at the Dealers or with the "key" trick I described.

    The latest CEL Codes could point directly to your problem....only way I was able to fix about 12 wiring problems on my 2.5 CRD after a frontal impact....CEL would point me to the right area to work on!;)

    Hope you do not have wiring issues but if you get me some CEL codes I could help you out with wiring problems!

    Fuel problems such as a blocked fuel filter do not generally post codes.

    Check the Export Jeep manuals as regards priming the fuel head to get air out of the system...the Export CRDs use a form of Raycor Filter head not seen in the USA....USA owners had a rubbish head on their CRDs and tended to replace it with a different model of Raycor head.

    Not starting when hot is usually the crank sensor...your new one may be faulty....normally posts a CEL.

    Does your CEL lamp work in your cluster? This is the picture of an engine in Amber at top right usually.
    Test the cluster lamps and gauges are working by holding IN the Odometer Reset button while turning the ignition ON. The cluster lamps all come ON and the gauges move around...not unusual for Dealers/Sellers to pry off the LED for the CEL Lamp!
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2020
  12. Corky KJ

    Corky KJ Daft as a brush!

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    Thanks for that, and funny enough, now you mention fuel filters etc, I have noticed (I just thought it was the right one as it has been well fitted and unless you know, you couldn't tell) after reading the manual from the download link you gave, the filter housing looks completely different. The one on mine looks like it has come off a ford or similar and is just a plain canister in/out push bleed. I then, on investigation, noticed a few wires hanging about, well insulated with tape. Check the voltage and found 2 with a 5v return. When checking further, I note that the 'original' pump has a water detector etc etc.

    All the lights come on and go off as they should on the dash EML included. So I will now do the code trick and have pen and paper ready. Hopefully that should give me the final. Just weird that after cleaning the pump HP valve, it started in a matter of a very quick key turn and fired up a couple of times after that then after the run, nothing again. Have ordered a Bosch original anyway, I won hurt. A job for tomorrow.

    Honestly the more I delve, the more I sweat lol. To be fair, I got it very very cheap, so not that bothered about hoofing around with it! Thanks again, so much to take in, I'm just glad I recognise the blurb being used....god help a non mechanic trying to get through that lot. O how this takes me back, so glad its just a hobby now though. Cant see it, cant feel it, cant smell it and cant hear it...Electricery EH? Hence I'm mechanical lol
     
  13. Corky KJ

    Corky KJ Daft as a brush!

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    Just to clarify, do you mean the what we over here know as the Engine Management light, when you refer to CML (I assume this is Check Engine Light?) If so, yes it does come on initially as it should, then goes off with the rest.

    Cheers
     
  14. Billwill

    Billwill Full Access Member

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    Yes the Check Engine Light...should normally light up as you turn ignition ON then go out at once. If it stays ON then you have a hard error ie. ignition coming ON picks up an error straight away.
    If the Light goes out after initial ignition ON then lights up upon turning the engine over it means the ECM has picked up an error once the engine starts turning over ie. something like no crank sensor pulse present.

    If your 2003 Export 2.8 CRD has the turbocharger with variable vanes...I am not sure when the Export models came out with this....then a good forum is www.lostjeeps.com

    Go to Liberty CRD Love That Torque Section where all CRD questions are posted.
    At the top of this forum is SAMS NOOB GUIDE which is worth looking into...it has nice pictures of the engine bay showing where all sensors etc. are located and a general description of the 2.8 CRD USA/Canada models 2005/6. Some slight differences to the Export models.

    Pretty much all of the established CRD owners here on Jeepkj are also members of Lost!

    You may see my name mentioned in Sams Noob Guide....giving my age away here!:(
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2020
  15. Corky KJ

    Corky KJ Daft as a brush!

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    Brilliant, never checked it when turning it over . Just know its off when it starts up....eventually! Going to go through the switch trick tomorrow and see what we get.

    Thanks again for your help
    Cirky
     
  16. Corky KJ

    Corky KJ Daft as a brush!

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    Not had chance to look today, blowing a complete hooley and absolutely freezing outside, even in the garage!

    A friend of mine has found a brand new pump regulator as well so 90 quid saved if it doesn't work! Factory original Bosch too, so well happy with that.

    She started well a couple of times though today, despite the windchill of -4 c blowing straight through the radiator when parked, but alas, not always. Due to the crud build up and the mileage, I have ordered a new MAP sensor anyway and have spoken to the supplier of the crank sensor who are happy to send a new one FOC. Again, factory original. The supplier are good guys and said if this one doesn't work, not to worry about it 'send it back when you can'. So cant beat that !

    I'll do the code key trickery tomorrow at some point and let you have the codes as they stand. I clearly wont know what old and new apart from ABS related issues, which I cured very quickly with a speed sensor in the rear axle.

    Thanks again
    Corky
     
  17. Corky KJ

    Corky KJ Daft as a brush!

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    Ha ha what ya like?

    Your info is second to none mate and don't let anyone tell you different....bloody hell man, saying plugs points condensers would send old age shivers up spines, that said, at least we new where we stood with them things!! Even in line pumps, glass bowls and indirect injection would make a modern day mechanic s**t themselves ha ha ha ha

    Anyhow, got around to doing the key trick and got a fair few numbers. So looked them up as suggested and found the good old crank sensor at the top of the tree. Took a look and the cable had burned out against the exhaust! BUGGER! it was a new one lol. However, got a new one (genuine) and it made no difference....DAM IT! so back to the drawing board again. I checked the pressure (admittedly without a gauge) from the pump to the rail and turnover, i.e cranking on key, is low but running pressure once started is immense. Have cleaned everything in the way you suggested but now really banging my head off a wall! It is literally only when hot, BUT, I can leave it running for an hour or so without moving, turn it off and leave it for a minute, and away she goes as she should. Its sooooo weird!

    I even found a post of yours from years back, stating using a bubble pump to bypass the filter, although it was, to be fair, a low pressure fuel pump off a mini that I used. Fully bled the system, but to no avail!

    Do we have a mental health forum on here ha ha ha ha ha
     
  18. turblediesel

    turblediesel memberable

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    The US 2.8 CRD came without a fuel pump in the tank and the fuel line connectors are designed to seal when pressurized. Without the pressure from the (absent) pump air can be sucked into the line at the connectors causing herky-jerks during moments of high fuel demand. This is known as "air-in-fuel". Air can also get into the fuel line sometimes at the crimped connectors that connect the flexible line to the fittings attaching the line to the fuel filter head.

    The filter head itself on the US version may also let air in at the electrical connector for the fuel heater on the filter head itself. The original US filter heads are plastic and the fuel heater element melts the point where the wires connect letting air in. The solution is a nearly identical fuel filter head (gen 2) made of metal with a slightly different electrical connector. A small scrape-test will tell you if you have a plastic or metal filter head. The euro versions usually have a different Racor filter head so this might not apply to yours.

    Next time it quits try pumping the hand pump on the filter head and bleed the air out of the system and see if it starts.

    Sasquatch has a kit for in$talling a fuel pump in the tank and ID Parts has lots of stuff for these engines.

    The only other thing I can think of is a bunch of crud in the tank plugging the line which is a long shot compared to the common air-in-fuel dilemma and electrical gremlins.
     
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  19. Billwill

    Billwill Full Access Member

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    OK what codes are displayed last when you do the key trick?
    Give us the last 3 in sequence.
    Create a new error....pull out the relay for the viscous heater and turn over the engine and replace the relay.
    This new code is a "bookmark" so any new code that comes up should hopefully display after your bookmark.

    Ideally you need the Dealers to erase all codes so you start with a clean slate although I have survived for nearly 18 years now without any help from the Dealers.;)

    What pin or wire color on the Crank Sensor melted to engine? May have caused damage elsewhere.:confused:
     
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  20. Corky KJ

    Corky KJ Daft as a brush!

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    So if I was to fit an electric pump, would I need to by pass the mechanical? I ask this because of the pressure sensor at the back of the mech pump and also the fact that or question really, is this pump lubricated by the fuel running through? As its driven by the timing belt, you can understand why I ask? Thanks again, all this help is amazing.