e85 in a liberty

[twack]

i run e85 in my talon, and once in awhile i am guilty of putting half a tank of e85 in with half a tank of gas. now i know the liberty is not made for that but i was wondering what you guys thought? i had no bad effects from running it,no worse milage. thoughts and opinions?

 

[belvedere]

I sure wouldn't do it, but they're your vehicles.

 

[JeepJeepster]

Ive heard the stuff will eat through gas lines and things that are not made for it. Not sure what itll do to the injectors.

I wouldnt do it either..

 

[Powerslave]

There is not much difference between an Ethanol fuel system, and a petroleum fuel system. You can't use E85 through a carburetter, it can't be mixed and atomized correctly. The injectors are designed to output more fuel with E85, because standard FI systems can't handle the load, but WILL work to a certain extent. E85 is 105 Octane right out of the pump.

Basically, modern cars that have fuel-injection engines, they have oxygen sensors. With E85 in the tank, the ECM will attempt to adjust the air-fuel mixture based on what the O2 sensor sees, but; the ECM can only change the air to fuel ratio at idle, and at light cruising speeds based on O2 sensor input. Since the computer can not add more fuel without the input from the oxygen sensor at high loads, there will be significant power losses in cars not designed for E85.

Also, putting more than 50% ethanol in a standard FI system, will generally cause the check engine light to come on, which is an indication that it can no longer maintain the closed-loop control of the internal combustion process. This is not due to the presence of more oxygen in E85, but rather that E85 has less carbon per volume, thus requiring more fuel than the injectors can deliver. Once the CES comes on, adding more ethanol to the fuel tank becomes inefficient. For example, running 90% ethanol in a non equipped system will reduce fuel economy by 33%, or more relative to what would be achieved running 100% gasoline. Here is the damaging part: If you continue to use E85 in your gas engine, with the CES on, you may cause damage to the catalytic converter, as well as to the engine pistons. To run your gas engine with amounts of ethanol high enough to cause the CES to illuminate, risks severe damage to the vehicle, that may outweigh any economic benefit of E85.

In Pennsylvania, in the summer time, they add 10% of ethanol to the gas mixture. If I go to Ohio, where is no Ethanol in the gas? I can see how much longer that gas lasts, compared to Pennsylvania. Meanwhile, we're paying the high taxes and high price for gas that gives us less MPG, with E10 in it.

I do not expect E85 to last much longer, as it IS considered a failure. This is nothing new, and this has been in existence sine 1826; where Samuel Morey developed an engine that ran on ethanol and turpentine. http://www.fuel-testers.com/ethanol_fuel_history.html - After seeing that, we STILL went to gas powered engines? Ethanol never stuck, and I don't think it will now either.

Though, E85 is cheaper, but does not get the MPG regular gas does, so you use more of it, almost twice as much, adn that's out FOOD they're messing with, driving up costs. The only benefit of E85 is the low to almost non existent emissions. IF there was a way to run an engine on Ethanol without crankcase oil, the emissions would be next to nothing.

 

[tjkj2002]

There is not much difference between an Ethanol fuel system, and a petroleum fuel system. You can't use E85 through a carburetter, it can't be mixed and atomized correctly. The injectors are designed to output more fuel with E85, because standard FI systems can't handle the load, but WILL work to a certain extent. E85 is 105 Octane right out of the pump.

Basically, modern cars that have fuel-injection engines, they have oxygen sensors. With E85 in the tank, the ECM will attempt to adjust the air-fuel mixture based on what the O2 sensor sees, but; the ECM can only change the air to fuel ratio at idle, and at light cruising speeds based on O2 sensor input. Since the computer can not add more fuel without the input from the oxygen sensor at high loads, there will be significant power losses in cars not designed for E85.

The info about the PCM does not change the air/fuel ratio at only idle and low speeds is false.The PCM can and does adjust the air/fuel ratio at any rpm and any load and uses more then just the O2 sensors to do so.

The fuel systems that can run E85 has different fuel lines and different o-rings in the fuel system to combat the corrsive nature of E85.

 

[tjkj2002]

DESCRIPTION - PCM
The Powertrain Control Module (PCM) is located
in the engine compartment (Fig. 8). The PCM is
referred to as JTEC.
DESCRIPTION - MODES OF OPERATION
As input signals to the Powertrain Control Module
(PCM) change, the PCM adjusts its response to the
output devices. For example, the PCM must calculate
different injector pulse width and ignition timing for
idle than it does for wide open throttle (WOT).
The PCM will operate in two different modes:
Open Loop and Closed Loop.
During Open Loop modes, the PCM receives input
signals and responds only according to preset PCM
programming. Input from the oxygen (O2S) sensors
is not monitored during Open Loop modes.
During Closed Loop modes, the PCM will monitor
the oxygen (O2S) sensors input. This input indicates
to the PCM whether or not the calculated injector
pulse width results in the ideal air-fuel ratio. This
ratio is 14.7 parts air-to-1 part fuel. By monitoring
the exhaust oxygen content through the O2S sensor,
the PCM can fine tune the injector pulse width. This
is done to achieve optimum fuel economy combined
with low emission engine performance.
The fuel injection system has the following modes
of operation:
† Ignition switch ON
† Engine start-up (crank)
† Engine warm-up
† Idle
† Cruise
† Acceleration
† Deceleration
† Wide open throttle (WOT)
† Ignition switch OFF
The ignition switch On, engine start-up (crank),
engine warm-up, acceleration, deceleration and wide
open throttle modes are Open Loop modes. The idle
and cruise modes, (with the engine at operating temperature)
are Closed Loop modes.
IGNITION SWITCH (KEY-ON) MODE
This is an Open Loop mode. When the fuel system
is activated by the ignition switch, the following
actions occur:
† The PCM pre-positions the idle air control (IAC)
motor.
† The PCM determines atmospheric air pressure
from the MAP sensor input to determine basic fuel
strategy.
† The PCM monitors the engine coolant temperature
sensor input. The PCM modifies fuel strategy
based on this input.
† Intake manifold air temperature sensor input is
monitored.
† Throttle position sensor (TPS) is monitored.
† The auto shutdown (ASD) relay is energized by
the PCM for approximately three seconds.
The fuel pump is energized through the fuel
pump relay by the PCM. The fuel pump will operate
for approximately three seconds unless the engine is
operating or the starter motor is engaged.
† The O2S sensor heater element is energized via
the ASD or O2S heater relay. The O2S sensor input
is not used by the PCM to calibrate air-fuel ratio during
this mode of operation.
ENGINE START-UP MODE
This is an Open Loop mode. The following actions
occur when the starter motor is engaged.
The PCM receives inputs from:
† Battery voltage
† Engine coolant temperature sensor
† Crankshaft position sensor
† Intake manifold air temperature sensor
† Manifold absolute pressure (MAP) sensor
† Throttle position sensor (TPS)
† Camshaft position sensor signal
The PCM monitors the crankshaft position sensor.
If the PCM does not receive a crankshaft position
sensor signal within 3 seconds of cranking the
engine, it will shut down the fuel injection system.
The fuel pump is activated by the PCM through
the fuel pump relay.
Voltage is applied to the fuel injectors with the
ASD relay via the PCM. The PCM will then control
the injection sequence and injector pulse width by
turning the ground circuit to each individual injector
on and off.
The PCM determines the proper ignition timing
according to input received from the crankshaft position
sensor.
ENGINE WARM-UP MODE
This is an Open Loop mode. During engine warmup,
the PCM receives inputs from:
† Battery voltage
† Crankshaft position sensor
† Engine coolant temperature sensor
† Intake manifold air temperature sensor
† Manifold absolute pressure (MAP) sensor
† Throttle position sensor (TPS)
† Camshaft position sensor signal
† Park/neutral switch (gear indicator signal—auto.
trans. only)
† Air conditioning select signal (if equipped)
† Air conditioning request signal (if equipped)
Based on these inputs the following occurs:
† Voltage is applied to the fuel injectors with the
ASD relay via the PCM. The PCM will then control
the injection sequence and injector pulse width by
turning the ground circuit to each individual injector
on and off.
The PCM adjusts engine idle speed through the
idle air control (IAC) motor and adjusts ignition timing.
† The PCM operates the A/C compressor clutch
through the A/C compressor clutch relay. This is done
if A/C has been selected by the vehicle operator and
specified pressures are met at the high and low–pressure
A/C switches. Refer to Heating and Air Conditioning
for additional information.
† When engine has reached operating temperature,
the PCM will begin monitoring O2S sensor
input. The system will then leave the warm-up mode
and go into closed loop operation.
IDLE MODE
When the engine is at operating temperature, this
is a Closed Loop mode. At idle speed, the PCM
receives inputs from:
† Air conditioning select signal (if equipped)
† Air conditioning request signal (if equipped)
† Battery voltage
† Crankshaft position sensor
† Engine coolant temperature sensor
† Intake manifold air temperature sensor
† Manifold absolute pressure (MAP) sensor
† Throttle position sensor (TPS)
† Camshaft position sensor signal
† Battery voltage
† Park/neutral switch (gear indicator signal—auto.
trans. only)
† Oxygen sensors
Based on these inputs, the following occurs:
† Voltage is applied to the fuel injectors with the
ASD relay via the PCM. The PCM will then control
injection sequence and injector pulse width by turning
the ground circuit to each individual injector on
and off.
† The PCM monitors the O2S sensor input and
adjusts air-fuel ratio by varying injector pulse width.
It also adjusts engine idle speed through the idle air
control (IAC) motor.
† The PCM adjusts ignition timing by increasing
and decreasing spark advance.
† The PCM operates the A/C compressor clutch
through the A/C compressor clutch relay. This is done
if A/C has been selected by the vehicle operator and
specified pressures are met at the high and low–pressure
A/C switches. Refer to Heating and Air Conditioning
for additional information.
CRUISE MODE
When the engine is at operating temperature, this
is a Closed Loop mode. At cruising speed, the PCM
receives inputs from:
† Air conditioning select signal (if equipped)
† Air conditioning request signal (if equipped
Battery voltage
† Engine coolant temperature sensor
† Crankshaft position sensor
† Intake manifold air temperature sensor
† Manifold absolute pressure (MAP) sensor
† Throttle position sensor (TPS)
† Camshaft position sensor signal
† Park/neutral switch (gear indicator signal—auto.
trans. only)
† Oxygen (O2S) sensors
Based on these inputs, the following occurs:
† Voltage is applied to the fuel injectors with the
ASD relay via the PCM. The PCM will then adjust
the injector pulse width by turning the ground circuit
to each individual injector on and off.
† The PCM monitors the O2S sensor input and
adjusts air-fuel ratio. It also adjusts engine idle
speed through the idle air control (IAC) motor.
† The PCM adjusts ignition timing by turning the
ground path to the coil(s) on and off.
† The PCM operates the A/C compressor clutch
through the clutch relay. This happens if A/C has
been selected by the vehicle operator and requested
by the A/C thermostat.
ACCELERATION MODE
This is an Open Loop mode. The PCM recognizes
an abrupt increase in throttle position or MAP pressure
as a demand for increased engine output and
vehicle acceleration. The PCM increases injector
pulse width in response to increased throttle opening.
DECELERATION MODE
When the engine is at operating temperature, this
is an Open Loop mode. During hard deceleration, the
PCM receives the following inputs.
† Air conditioning select signal (if equipped)
† Air conditioning request signal (if equipped)
† Battery voltage
† Engine coolant temperature sensor
† Crankshaft position sensor
† Intake manifold air temperature sensor
† Manifold absolute pressure (MAP) sensor
† Throttle position sensor (TPS)
† Camshaft position sensor signal
† Park/neutral switch (gear indicator signal—auto.
trans. only)
† Vehicle speed
If the vehicle is under hard deceleration with the
proper rpm and closed throttle conditions, the PCM
will ignore the oxygen sensor input signal. The PCM
will enter a fuel cut-off strategy in which it will not
supply a ground to the injectors. If a hard deceleration
does not exist, the PCM will determine the
proper injector pulse width and continue injection.
Based on the above inputs, the PCM will adjust
engine idle speed through the idle air control (IAC)
motor.
The PCM adjusts ignition timing by turning the
ground path to the coil on and off.
WIDE OPEN THROTTLE MODE
This is an Open Loop mode. During wide open
throttle operation, the PCM receives the following
inputs.
† Battery voltage
† Crankshaft position sensor
† Engine coolant temperature sensor
† Intake manifold air temperature sensor
† Manifold absolute pressure (MAP) sensor
† Throttle position sensor (TPS)
† Camshaft position sensor signal
During wide open throttle conditions, the following
occurs:
† Voltage is applied to the fuel injectors with the
ASD relay via the PCM. The PCM will then control
the injection sequence and injector pulse width by
turning the ground circuit to each individual injector
on and off. The PCM ignores the oxygen sensor input
signal and provides a predetermined amount of additional
fuel. This is done by adjusting injector pulse
width.
† The PCM adjusts ignition timing by turning the
ground path to the coil(s) on and off.


Only on hard deceleration and WOT situations the PCM ignores O2 sensor output.

 

[Powerslave]

Wow, ha ha ha, you totally missed the subject matter; I know what O2 sensors do, I am speaking of, with the use of E85, over GAS. You didn't bother to read what was written right in front of your face. Then, on TOP of that, DUH, you even QUOTED me, ha ha, and YOU STILL missed it!? I am the one who said something false? Well, why not TRY and READ it again there Einstein.

With E85 in the tank,the ECM will attempt to adjust the air-fuel mixture based on what the O2 sensor sees, but; the ECM can only change the air to fuel ratio at idle, and at light cruising speeds based on O2 sensor input.

Yeah, see, I did not say this is what happens ALL the time, but you, go go go boy... You thought was a BLANKET statement, when you totally missed what was in the tank, E85, not gasoline. That's what happens when there is E85 in the tank, not GAS! This is why E85 should not be used in gasoline engines, but people DO it, or mix it.

It is not what the ECM cannot do, it is what it cannot do with the E85 in the gas tank, over GASOLINEm due to the properties of E85. The readings from the O2 sensors, DUE to E85 in the tank, is what causes it not to be able to adjust the mixture properly. If you are not getting the input, then you can't adjust, which is why the CEL comes on. Maybe I should be a LOT more verbose, sorry, I do tend forget there are people that haven't quite mastered the whole subject and predicate thing.

I see you even posted MORE information, and you see, how the O2 sensor input is ignored in some cases, BUT, I was talking E85, not GAS... Also, I never said it IGNORES it either, you just read what is said... You are adding to it, I am not. This is all in ERROR state due to E85, but again, English is hard to master...

 

[tjkj2002]

Wow, ha ha ha, you totally missed the subject matter; I know what O2 sensors do, I am speaking of, with the use of E85, over GAS. You didn't bother to read what was written right in front of your face. Then, on TOP of that, DUH, you even QUOTED me, ha ha, and YOU STILL missed it!? I am the one who said something false? Well, why not TRY and READ it again there Einstein. Yeah, see, I did not say this is what happens ALL the time, but you, go go go boy... You thought was a BLANKET statement, when you totally missed what was in the tank, E85, not gasoline. That's what happens when there is E85 in the tank, not GAS! This is why E85 should not be used in gasoline engines, but people DO it, or mix it.

It is not what the ECM cannot do, it is what it cannot do with the E85 in the gas tank, over GASOLINEm due to the properties of E85. The readings from the O2 sensors, DUE to E85 in the tank, is what causes it not to be able to adjust the mixture properly. If you are not getting the input, then you can't adjust, which is why the CEL comes on. Maybe I should be a LOT more verbose, sorry, I do tend forget there are people that haven't quite mastered the whole subject and predicate thing.

The O2 sensors will still function causing causing a over lean or over rich condition which is why the the MIL will turn on throwing O2 sensor performance codes.E85 will not make the O2 sensors stop working,period.

 

[Marlon_JB2]

Hmm...

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[LibertyOrDeath]

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That is all

 

[twack]

OK i know about ethanol. Like i said i use it in my talon. The benefits of using it in a turbo engine is if you can supply the fuel it acts as a cheap race gas. Ya i use more of it but it keeps me from knock at high psi. For us being able to buy something that is american made, and half the price of race gas yet most of the qualities. but many of us in the race worled are using ethanol in setups that are made for gas and have standard lines. we have not noticed any problems with it being corrosive. Im not saying that the two mix well but i am saying that for a few years you can run without problems, in the race world of swapping out parts like it was going out of stlye, a few years is awesome.

Now back to the liberty. I dont think that straight e85 would be good for a liberty. In MN we always have e10 at almost all the pumps all year round. Like i said i have done half and half and noticed no problems or differences. The check engine light never came on. Im just wondering with a half and half mix could the ECU compensate for e40?

 

[Dave]

i run e85 in my talon, and once in awhile i am guilty of putting half a tank of e85 in with half a tank of gas. now i know the liberty is not made for that but i was wondering what you guys thought? i had no bad effects from running it,no worse milage. thoughts and opinions?

Took me awile to get to this point in the thread. I really like Midnight's "Buthurt Form".....LOL.

Anyway, I wouldn't do that. It is bad enough we got E10 as it is. I don't think you hurt anything if you did it "once in a while". It seems like everything I have read seems to indicate 10% Ethanol is ok but anything over that could be a problem for vehicles not made to run more Ethanol.

Personally, I don't see how running all that Ethanol didn't affect your gas mileage as you said. Mine is affected by only 10% ethanol, although I know some of it is attributed to the cold weather.

Dave

 

[tjkj2002]

OK i know about ethanol. Like i said i use it in my talon. The benefits of using it in a turbo engine is if you can supply the fuel it acts as a cheap race gas. Ya i use more of it but it keeps me from knock at high psi. For us being able to buy something that is american made, and half the price of race gas yet most of the qualities. but many of us in the race worled are using ethanol in setups that are made for gas and have standard lines. we have not noticed any problems with it being corrosive. Im not saying that the two mix well but i am saying that for a few years you can run without problems, in the race world of swapping out parts like it was going out of stlye, a few years is awesome.

Now back to the liberty. I dont think that straight e85 would be good for a liberty. In MN we always have e10 at almost all the pumps all year round. Like i said i have done half and half and noticed no problems or differences. The check engine light never came on. Im just wondering with a half and half mix could the ECU compensate for e40?

You should be fine,your power and mpg's will be reduced as long as you never mix more then 50/50.I'd say 75/25 would be a better mix.The PCM will compensate for the E85 mix via many sensors and that is were the reduced power and mpg's will come into play.

 

[Powerslave]

The O2 sensors will still function causing causing a over lean or over rich condition which is why the the MIL will turn on throwing O2 sensor performance codes.E85 will not make the O2 sensors stop working,period.

Hey Einstein; I never said they would STOP working, they can't NOT work unless they are broke, or bad harness or wires, they have power to them ALL the time, and they are always sending sending signals to the ECM. There is a point where the ECM can't adjust to their readings because the data is out of tolerance. Again, I prove to you, that English is getting hard to understand these days. Go back and READ it one more time maybe? Here"

With E85 in the tank,the ECM will attempt to adjust the air-fuel mixture based on what the O2 sensor sees, but; the ECM can only change the air to fuel ratio at idle, and at light cruising speeds based on O2 sensor input.

So, umm, yeah, Where in there do I say they STOP working? Please go back to school, and learn how to read again, Mmmmmmmm-Kay? Even the quote you did in your reply, doesn't have me saying anything about them STOPPING to work. So, quote me again, and BOLD, where I say they, the O2 SENSORS actually stop, STOP working. <=- like that... You're putting words in my, umm, text...

See the cool Butthurt form....

 

[LibertyOrDeath]

See the cool Butthurt form....

The form was for you, Einstein. This forum is not for trolls, please stop being one and hold a respectable conversation without acting like you have been there done that and know everything. kthnxbye.

 

[flair1111]

Hmm...

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haha at the MJ thing!

 

[flair1111]

i run e85 in my talon, and once in awhile i am guilty of putting half a tank of e85 in with half a tank of gas. now i know the liberty is not made for that but i was wondering what you guys thought? i had no bad effects from running it,no worse milage. thoughts and opinions?

ive tried it in the lib twice and it sucked. i tried it in my old truck (carb) and it seemed about the same. (blarg)


so whats the difference in say half a tank of regular gas with a gallon of everclear poured into the tank with it.

also tried this on my old truck. thing ran very strong.

 

[tjkj2002]

Powerslave Quote:
Originally Posted by tjkj2002
The O2 sensors will still function causing causing a over lean or over rich condition which is why the the MIL will turn on throwing O2 sensor performance codes.E85 will not make the O2 sensors stop working,period.

Hey Einstein; I never said they would STOP working, they can't NOT work unless they are broke, or bad harness or wires, they have power to them ALL the time, and they are always sending sending signals to the ECM. There is a point where the ECM can't adjust to their readings because the data is out of tolerance. Again, I prove to you, that English is getting hard to understand these days. Go back and READ it one more time maybe? Here"

Quote:
Originally Posted by ME!
With E85 in the tank,the ECM will attempt to adjust the air-fuel mixture based on what the O2 sensor sees, but; the ECM can only change the air to fuel ratio at idle, and at light cruising speeds based on O2 sensor input.

So, umm, yeah, Where in there do I say they STOP working? Please go back to school, and learn how to read again, Mmmmmmmm-Kay? Even the quote you did in your reply, doesn't have me saying anything about them STOPPING to work. So, quote me again, and BOLD, where I say they, the O2 SENSORS actually stop, STOP working. <=- like that... You're putting words in my, umm, text...

1st you need to read what a O2 sensor is and what it does,you have no clue.

O2 sensors do not need power to operate,they make there own power.The only power sent to the O2 sensors is for the heater element only to speed up the time before they start working which is usually between 550 degrees-650 degrees and this power is only for the heater element and does not in anyway have anything to do with the operation of the O2 sensor.The O2 sensors will only read from 0mv to 1000mv,that is it,for a performance OBDII code to pop up the sensor is either switching very slowly compared to the others or is totally dead.The O2 sensors do not produce,and can not produce,any more then 1000mv and well nothing can produce more less then 0mv.If they are not reading between 0-1000mv's then they are dead,plain and simple.

Oh and you did state very clearly that the PCM can not change the air/fuel ratio in any other state then idle and light cruising(which is totally false as I posted facts right out of the FSM) which would mean that the O2 sensors would have to stop working if they are in there operating temp to not send info to the PCM to adjust the air/fuel ratio.There are only 2 times that the PCM ignores the O2 sensors and that is under very hard decaleration and WOT,otherwise the PCM is constantly adjusting air/fuel ratio via O2 sensors and other sensors,at idel,at 1/4 throttle,at 1/2 throttle,and even 3/4 throttle.


You might want to get your facts straight first before posting crap,WIKI is not a source of facts either,neither is your wanna be mechanic.I get paid to know this stuff since I have to diagnose this junk everyday so I need the correct info,I'd get fired with your so called facts.


Okay I'm done with this thread.

 

[sleeve]

popcorn please!

 

[Marlon_JB2]

popcorn please!

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