Swapped V6 Fan for CRD Metal Fan

retmil46

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This project got put on the back burner for a few months, but I finally got it done yesterday.

Last year, in the thread on replacing the mechanical fan clutch, I mentioned that a friend and I had tumbled to the fact that our CRD 5 bladed metal fan, and the 11 bladed nylon fan on V6's with a tow package, had the same exact bolt-up dimensions as far as installing them on the fan clutch.

I ordered a V6 nylon fan, about $50 at the time, and determined that all the other dimensions were close enough that it should work without a problem.

Yesterday I finally got the time to put it in, using the method described in the earlier thread. Fired it up and went for a test drive, so far seems to be working like a charm.

If nothing else, a considerable difference in weight between that metal fan and the nylon one.
 

Ranger1

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This project got put on the back burner for a few months, but I finally got it done yesterday.

Last year, in the thread on replacing the mechanical fan clutch, I mentioned that a friend and I had tumbled to the fact that our CRD 5 bladed metal fan, and the 11 bladed nylon fan on V6's with a tow package, had the same exact bolt-up dimensions as far as installing them on the fan clutch.

I ordered a V6 nylon fan, about $50 at the time, and determined that all the other dimensions were close enough that it should work without a problem.

Yesterday I finally got the time to put it in, using the method described in the earlier thread. Fired it up and went for a test drive, so far seems to be working like a charm.

If nothing else, a considerable difference in weight between that metal fan and the nylon one.

Sound good Mitch. Should help cool the beast this summer in those Texas temps. Now, about that oil pressure gauge...
 

retmil46

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Green Diesel Engineering removed the fan entirely, read about it here:

http://www.greendieselengineering.com/forum/posts/list/15/69.page#476

Well, that certainly sounds like an interesting WINTERTIME experiment. Here in South Texas during the summer, that would be a sure-fire way to end up with no A/C and overheat your engine and ****** inside of about 10 minutes on the interstate.

If the intent is to gather data toward the ultimate aim of replacing the mechanical fan with an electric version, that reduces drag on the engine when not needed, but can still do an adequate job of cooling in high heat situations, then more power to them.

I'd caution that that mechanical fan cools a multitude of items - the engine coolant, which also cools the engine oil and EGR cooler (if still active), the intercooler, and also the air-cooled combination ****** oil cooler and A/C condenser.

Many people, not just in the Jeep community but in the diesel pickup truck community as well, have looked at replacing the mechanical fan with an electric setup over the past few years. From what I've seen, with the aftermarket choices available, they've been hard pressed to find an option that would fit in the space available under the hood, not overtax their electrical system, AND come anywhere close to moving the same amount of air and providing the same level of cooling when it was really needed.

IMO, the best option would be what they use on Class 8 OTR rigs - I worked at a Freightliner assembly plant for 12 years - to control the mechanical fan. They use an air-operated on/off fan clutch. When the coolant temp is below a certain setpoint, the clutch and fan are completely disengaged. When the coolant temp exceeds the setpoint, the clutch engages, and the fan springs to life with essentially a direct mechanical coupling to it's drive pulley.

And FWIW, the 11 bladed nylon V6 mechanical fan is just a smaller version of the same fans they put on the Class 8 rigs.

I have a friend with a 2011 Wrangler Unlimited, with the 3.8 L V6 gasser engine. Minus an intercooler, they have the same setup regards the radiator and air-cooled combination ****** oil cooler and A/C condenser as we do. But, the only fan they have installed is an approx 16" electric fan mounted behind the radiator - no aux electric fan in front at all. He says a common complaint on the forums is people regularly getting the ****** overtemp light - apparently from the lack of airflow thru and capacity of the factory ****** oil cooler/A/C condenser. And that a popular remedy has been to install an aux ****** oil cooler. I've noticed on a few occasions riding with him he keeps the A/C set to the bare minimum necessary to keep it comfortable inside the vehicle to minmize the heat load being pumped to that combination cooler, hopefully to help maximize ****** oil cooling.

For the time being, I'd rather take the 1 to 1.5 mpg hit on fuel economy, and live with a grille blanket or grille blockers on the occasions I do encounter cold weather, to be sure I've got adequate cooling both for the vehicle and myself when it's one of those 102 F August days here in San Antonio.
 

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retmil46, I assume in Texas you don't have any of the problems with keeping a CRD engine warm in the winter either? I think some of the guys on Lost are running with out the fan in the summer as well?
 

retmil46

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retmil46, I assume in Texas you don't have any of the problems with keeping a CRD engine warm in the winter either? I think some of the guys on Lost are running with out the fan in the summer as well?

Well, frankly, since I've removed the original thermostat and installed a new one that operates properly, same to be said for the fan clutch, no I haven't.

I've owned this beast since brand new Sept 05, living in the NC foothills and for the last two years in south Texas, and dealt with winter temps down in the teens and single digits. Even with a weak-kneed original thermostat and the heat load from the EGR cooler being, shall we say, "inactive", I've not run into anything that a set of grille blockers (made from a "for sale" sign and a can of black paint) or a Fia grille blanket couldn't handle.

For that matter, I was back in NC the first two weeks of January this year, with temps dropping into the teens and 20's. With a properly operating thermostat and fan clutch, I found the grille blockers to be pretty much a moot point as far as keeping the engine up to temp.

In regards to some gents on LOST running without the mechanical fan in the summer - in regards to LOST, I'll keep my opinions on what it's turned into the last couple of years to myself, suffice it to say I haven't bothered visiting it for 2 years - without knowing the details or circumstances of what these gents are attempting removing the mechanical fan (ie, if they installed an electric fan in it's place), I'll reserve judgement and say that perhaps they're being a little "overzealous" in their search for fuel economy.

I will say this - if you're in an area like San Antonio where it can get above 100 F for days in a row, regularly get caught in traffic jams or stop and go traffic due to accidents or road construction, where having effective A/C on your vehicle can literally become a health issue, remove the mechanical fan WITHOUT providing an effective replacement, and try to get by just on the small aux electric fan behind the grille and airflow at speed - in my book that would just be plain frakkin stupid.
 
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Ranger1

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"I will say this - if you're in an area like San Antonio where it can get above 100 F for days in a row, regularly get caught in traffic jams or stop and go traffic due to accidents or road construction, where having effective A/C on your vehicle can literally become a health issue, remove the mechanical fan WITHOUT providing an effective replacement, and try to get by just on the small aux electric fan behind the grille and airflow at speed - in my book that would just be plain frakkin stupid."

Agreed Mitch. Based on my own experience of a weak viscous fan clutch from day one when the vehicle was brand new, after seeing how little the electric fan runs now, I'd think removing the mechanical fan might shorten the life of the electric fan. Given the quality of recent Chrysler OE parts, a quick price check of the electric fan versus the mechanical fan makes it an easy choice.

If I could save 1.0 mpg without the fan, at 10K miles a year, at my current average of 22.5 mpg city fuel economy, I would save a whopping 19 gallons of fuel a year, but only if the decreased air flow across the AC condenser in city traffic didn't consume it and more with extra duty cycling of the compressor.

I like the idea enough to test it out myself. I ordered an 11 blade nylon fan blade for the CRD. Will test it out this summer in the 100 degree plus weather we've been having for the last 5 years. I know from working on my 02 this past summer that it puts out a lot more air than the metal blade at idle. Similar to your cold weather experience, once I changed the thermostat I have no problem warming up the CRD engine quickly in 10*F weather, even without the FIA blanket. None at all.
 

warp2diesel

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Another good app for the 11 blade plastic fan would be high altitude in hot weather. True it drops 3F for every 1,000 ft, but when you are pulling a load up a steep long grade, there is more heat generated and having more air molecules go past the radiator/intercooler/trans cooler/fuel cooler the better off you are.
Electric motors are de-rated on their power output for use at high altitude because of the lack of cooling available due to the thinner atmosphere.
 

Ranger1

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I replaced the CRD metal fan with the 02 Liberty V6 11 blade nylon fan and it fits better than the original. It actually has better clearance to the AC pulley than the metal fan and it's still at least 2 inches away from the radiator. It looks to be a bit closer to the radiator than the metal fan was.

When I first tested it, the engine was cool and the fan was only spinning a couple hundred rpm so I couldn't tell anything before it warmed up.

Took it for a test drive in our miserable 97* high humidity weather this afternoon. Man!! The loud fan roar at stoplights is gone, but the rush of air when you take off is unmistakable. After a 10 mile run, I pulled into the driveway, popped the hood and it was like a small blast furnace of hot air blowing up in my face. This fan puts out the air far better than the old 5 blade. The egt's also dropped down in half the time it normally takes in this humid weather. I also noticed that the nylon fan weighs quite a bit less than the stock fan.

Great idea, Mitch.
 

warp2diesel

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Ordered my V6 fan and Hayden Fan Clutch

Plan to add an Oil cooler, trans cooler, and larger capacity fuel cooler. The extra air flow will help it all work better.

Fan from Moparonlineparts.com $50.43 + $10.99 Shipping
Hayden clutch from O'Relly $54.99 + $10.51 shipping + $3.44 Tax

Hayden clutch from O'Relly showed up the next day but, my order from Moparonlineparts was eaten by their server and never sent an email confirmation. I called them up, they fixed it, and they sold it to me for the same price.
 
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OldSkull

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Just get back from the "Stealer" with the nylon fan $112 with all good Canadian taxes! Best price I can found here! No problem since I got the serpentine for $50 at Carquest but the Viscous clutch his $124 and need a 6 week delivery delay or a 2 days delivery at Napa for $169! Dooooooo Frack no way! I get the Hayden VC from Auto parts wharehouse $63.93 +$26.56 shipping so I estimate my cost after custom charge at about $108 for the VC.

My advise for Canadian customer his...If you just need the fan to do this mod dont order from US source, at the final you just pay a extra $30 to get this job done the next day! But if you need the VC and the belt, order from good US source, you get your stuff faster and save arround $80 in bonus!

Thank you for that mod folk's, you just found a cheap solution to repair Chrysler mistake...:)

PS: Steven (Warp) I thing I will pay you next time I need stuff from your side! Your the man ****!
 
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flman

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Old Skull, those Free Health care premiums hurt. Ouch!
 

warp2diesel

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Got my fan and Hayden clutch installed. Once I ponied up for the NAPA fan clutch tool kit, the fan clutch cam off. The socket in the bolt hole, or hitting the wrench with a hammer trick did not work. AC works much better in hot weather than ever before.
 

Lancer

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Ok, I'm sitting here in England, so I'm resigned to the fact that ALL of these parts will be more expensive for me than for you lads! However, I like the sound of the nylon fan mod. Has anyone found any issues with the nylon fan over the metal one? As it's closer to the radiator than the metal fan, has that caused any problems?

Someone mentioned changing the thermostat - is that just a factory item you've fitted (the dealer installed a new one for me last year as part of replacing the tc under warranty) or is that also a special item - and if so why not stick with the oem unit?

On the installation front - how easy is it to change them over yourself - any special tools needed? And finally, what's the advantage of the Hayden clutch?

Sorry to ask so many questions - but there's not a lot of KJ owners in the UK who do anything to their vehicles and no 4x4 specialist shops who work on them (it's all Land Rover experts and where it is Jeep - it's mostly Wranglers/XJs) so there's no-one here to ask.
 

retmil46

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Ok, I'm sitting here in England, so I'm resigned to the fact that ALL of these parts will be more expensive for me than for you lads! However, I like the sound of the nylon fan mod. Has anyone found any issues with the nylon fan over the metal one? As it's closer to the radiator than the metal fan, has that caused any problems?

Someone mentioned changing the thermostat - is that just a factory item you've fitted (the dealer installed a new one for me last year as part of replacing the tc under warranty) or is that also a special item - and if so why not stick with the oem unit?

On the installation front - how easy is it to change them over yourself - any special tools needed? And finally, what's the advantage of the Hayden clutch?

Sorry to ask so many questions - but there's not a lot of KJ owners in the UK who do anything to their vehicles and no 4x4 specialist shops who work on them (it's all Land Rover experts and where it is Jeep - it's mostly Wranglers/XJs) so there's no-one here to ask.

No issues with the nylon fan at all. Ranger1 mentioned there was at least still 2 inches between the fan and radiator, that it "looked" closer - on mine, seems to be no difference in distance between fan and radiator, only measureable difference is an extra 1/4" of clearance between the back side of the fan and the A/C compressor pulley. Same diameter as the metal fan, no issues with clearing the plastic shroud.

As far as the thermostat - that was probably my comments - we've had an issue, at least in the U.S., with the original factory thermostats being of poor quality and not working properly. That has led to overheating issues in summer (when combined with the poor quailty factory fan clutches), and to overcooling issues in the winter - having to use grille blankets and blockers to reduce air flow thru the radiator to maintain engine temp. My original factory thermostat finally gave up the ghost back in January, and I replaced it with a new OEM Mopar thermostat - little choice, since it's sealed inside an aluminum housing and you have to replace the whole unit, you have to use the factory replacement - over $100 USD. After that, no issues maintaining engine temps WITHOUT a grille blanket or blockers, even in temps down to single digits Farenheit. Amazing what a difference a properly operating thermostat can make on this beast - and I didn't realize until I'd installed the replacement that my original had never operated properly to begin with.

Mine was most likely already out of warranty as far as replacing the thermostat, and at that, I had no desire to take it to a dealer, as they would have attempted to install a few unwanted "upgrades" to fix recall items they claim are still outstanding - I've already addressed these issues with superior quality aftermarket parts - but when I contacted DC to get my vehicle taken off the recall list, they were quite snotty about it and refused to do so unless I brought the vehicle into a dealership and let then install THEIR parts on it.

As far as special tools - you'll need some type of adjustable pin spanner or fan clutch holding tool equipped with pins to hold the fan pulley - over here, NAPA sells a generic one that's quite heavy duty and worked quite well - and a long 36 mm wrench to grab ahold of the nut on the fan clutch. Some type of extension for leverage on the 36 mm wrench would be adviseable, as it takes a good amount of force to break it loose (helps if everything is somewhat warm from driving) - something on the order of 100 ft/lbs or better. A 10 mm wrench or socket/ratchet will suffice for removing the bolts holding the fan blade to the clutch - only about 10 ft/lbs.

I believe I did a writeup in another thread on changing the fan clutch itself, as to what you needed to disconnect and move out of the way to be able to pull the radiator shroud up far enough to be able to remove the fan and clutch once you had them disconnected from the pulley. Main items are the attachments for the two A/C lines that run across the fan shroud, to be able to move them out of the way, the vent hose from the radiator, at least the drivers side boost hose at the intercooler. Two 10 mm bolts hold the shroud in place close to the top - then you can snake the shroud up, being careful of the radiator hoses.

As far as the Hayden clutch - it's rated for severe duty, and engages at a consideably lower air temp - 170 F vs 200 F or so - than the factory one. IMHO, DC simply installed a "normal duty" gasser fan clutch on our diesels to save money. Nylon fan is considerably lighter than the metal one, should help the clutch last even longer, and 11 blades vs 5 blades moves a lot more air.
 

Lancer

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Thanks Retmil. When my thermostat was replaced, I was told the original was defective, which had "fed in" to some other problems I'd been having - so as I said, the dealer replaced it together with the tc (which had also had problems) and the associated pump.

As my CRD started without problem this winter (exceptionally severe for England) - I'm happy! I will do the nylon fan replacement however - from the experiences of you lads, it's a mod that seems to offer benefits without a downside! I'm only surprised - given Chrysler's tightness with money, that they didn't fit the same fan across all models - petrol as well as diesel.

Thanks for the help and advice.
 
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