Starting problem, not starter or battery, what next?

[TikiX]

New here, I’m trying to help a friend with her 2002 Liberty, 2wd, auto, 3.7.
It has been doing the one-click when she goes to start it for a couple weeks I guess. First it would start on the second try, then the third or fourth. But sometimes first try it would start.
Now it won’t start. I figured starter or battery for sure. Battery tests 12.5 volts. Starter tests good, at two different parts stores. Looks like factory starter, btw.
I’m not a mechanic, but I have a little knowledge and skill in doing basic repairs etc.
What’s the next thing to look at. Do these Libertys have any common failures in this issue, like ignition switch, or battery cables, or...? Kinda don’t know where to look next. She doesn’t have the money to just throw parts at it hoping it’s this or that.
Looking for some knowledge to help solve this
Thanks in advance.

 

[LibertyTC]

Welcome to the forum.

Are all the terminals free from corrosion & tight?
Removing the terminals & ensuring a clean connection/ wire bush or sandpaper may help.

I'd also want to know if the Jeep's battery is strong enough & can pass a load test. How old is this battery any idea?
It's fairly easy to take the battery out and get it tested at any battery store. (best idea)
If battery fails load test consider an AGM (absorb glass matt) battery winch is longer lasting/more powerful.

Other Options:
If you have an automatic battery charger, plug Jeep battery in overnight, and see if it starts ok then.

Automotive jumper cables can also be used to find out if it's just a weak battery issue as well.

The vehicle with the good battery, attach the positive and negative cables, while the opposite ends remain separated.
Next then attach the positive to jeep battery- however the negative should not be attached to the Jeep battery, but to a frame bolt or the metal rad support/ bolt, which is a decent ground point.

 

[Billwill]

Best to have the battery Load tested to see if it is good.

Check the battery leads are clean and tight.
Check the Negative battery lead going to the chassis is clean and tight at the chassis.
There are two grounding straps grounding each bank of the V6 to chassis....make these are clean and tight.
Check Fuse #8 40 A in the fuse box under the hood is clean and firmly in place.

You can try the following:
Put the Jeep in Neutral instead of Park and see if it starts better.

With the ignition key in the slot and ignition turned ON, remove the Starter relay inside the relay box under the Hood.
Identify female pins 30 and 87 inside the empty Relay Socket.
With Jeep in Park or Neutral briefly jumper female pins 30 and 87 together.

This procedure bypasses the Ignition Switch, Actuator Pin assembly, Park and Neutral interlocks.....if the Jeep fires up nicely every time it is probably the Actuator Pin Assembly which is known to fire.

If this works get back to us here and we will advise you on how to replace the Actuator Pin assembly.

 

[TikiX]

Thanks for the responses.
The very first thing I did was check the terminals, which looked clean and corrosion fee, but I still took a post cleaner to them just to be sure.
Battery looks fairly new and clean, but does not have a date on it. She bought this vehicle just a month ago, so no idea how new or old the battery actually is.
I did test the battery with a simple tester, held against both terminals, and it showed 12.5. But I guess I do need to do a load test.
Good tips on checking the ground straps and battery ground, I will look for those.
I like the idea to jump the relay to bypass the upstream wiring, that would rule out or point towards all of that.
I’ll try all this and see where I get , and then report back, thanks!

 

[turblediesel]

Battery might have a build date melted into the edge of the battery top or on a small round sticker. One letter and one digit. The letter is the month and the digit is the year.

 

[TikiX]

Battery might have a build date melted into the edge of the battery top or on a small round sticker. One letter and one digit. The letter is the month and the digit is the year.

Thanks, never knew that.
This one has A7HAR and 6M29BSVI.
Maybe Jan 2007 from the first one? But that’s 13 years, seems unlikely...

 

[TikiX]

After the rain let up today, I got the starter back in, (tested good, twice), pulled the battery and brought it to Autozone. They tested it with a portable tester and declared it good. I talked a bit about needing it load tested and they took it in the back and tested it on something bigger and it still tested good, 12.83 I think.
But further talking with the manager about the whole problem, and he will let me buy a new starter and if that doesn’t solve it, he will let me return it no problem. Very cool on his part, I still feel it could be the starter even though it tested good, because it appears to be the factory starter.
I can pick it up in the morning.
Also, I’d like to do the jumper wire thing on the starter relay that Billwill mentioned above, but can someone tell me which pins are 30 and 87? I don’t have a repair manual for this vehicle.
I pulled and inspected that fuse, and it looks clean and fine, but it just has the numbers 1-5 by the pins, no 30 or 87.
Also checked fuse #8, looks clean , normal and fully inserted, thanks Billwill.

 

[Brendon Holt]

Here is a video on just what you need to do:

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[TikiX]

Thanks, I had just found that same video and went out and tried it!
Results - first try single click, single click, started up. Second try, single click, started up.
Put the fuse in and tried starting with key, single click seven times in a row, eighth try it started.
What does that tell? My thinking is, it starts with fewer trys, or clicks, at the fuse because it’s a more direct path from battery to starter, without having to run power to ignition? And so it could still be the starter?
Like I said in my first post, I’m not a mechanic, and I also don’t truly understand electrical,so, feel free to correct me!

Also, I tried key starting it in neutral, as suggested above, two out of five trys, it started normally. The other three it started after 1-2 clicks. What does that suggest?

 

[Brendon Holt]

Thanks, I had just found that same video and went out and tried it!
Results - first try single click, single click, started up. Second try, single click, started up.
Put the fuse in and tried starting with key, single click seven times in a row, eighth try it started.
What does that tell? My thinking is, it starts with fewer trys, or clicks, at the fuse because it’s a more direct path from battery to starter, without having to run power to ignition? And so it could still be the starter?
Like I said in my first post, I’m not a mechanic, and I also don’t truly understand electrical,so, feel free to correct me!

The real point of jumping those pins is to try and narrow down which circuits are working or not working properly. To my thinking, since you bypassed the ignition and neutral position switch (right name?) by jumping those pins and are still getting a click you've basically isolated the problem points to the starter, battery, and assorted wiring/grounds.

As to why you'd be getting more clicks going through the ignition, I'm not too sure. For fun you could pull the relay out and see if you can repeat your results to see if it's actually related to the relay or just a fluke that you got more clicks through the ignition. Maybe Bill could tell you, I don't know too much about electronics. I don't think it has anything to do with a more direct route though since what that starter relay does is essentially wait until it has the go-ahead to send battery voltage down to the starter, and the ignition switch, neutral position switch and assorted gizmos are what gives that relay the all clear, if I understand the circuits correctly at least.

Did you check the grounding straps? You should find two of them at the back of the engine. The one on the passenger side is a pain to trace and check if I remember right but since the starter is grounded via the engine block if you don't have good ground on the engine you won't have good ground for your starter. And I'm assuming since you've had the starter off you've made sure all the connections at the starter itself were good.

EDIT: Per the intermittent issues persisting in neutral I'd say it rules out a bad neutral position switch (again, I think that's what it's called), which is good because on an '02 it's apparently a much more expensive fix than later years!

 

[Billwill]

Check the engine grounding straps first.

Swap the Starter Relay over with an identical one next to it.

I presume that when you are replacing the Starter Motor it comes with a new Solenoid Assembly fitted.

The fact that it does start better when jumping the Starter Relay means that it may be time to check the Actuator Pin Assembly.

Remove the plastic covers over the steering column....two Female Torx screws.
Now remove the ignition switch off from the steering column...on the early KJs like yours this should be a single smaller Female Torx screw...newer KJs need a "security" male Torx driver with a hole down its center.

Pull the ignition switch of from the Actuator Pin Assembly.....if you see bits of debris falling down then this assembly is shot.

With the key in the ignition slot and turned to ignition ON position and Jeep in either Park or Neutral use a small flat screwdriver to rotate the ignition switch itself...engine should start and run and you can drive it like this.

If the Actuator Pin assembly looks bad you can replace it with one from Dorman...Dealers do not stock it!

There can sometimes be an issue whereby the Actuator Pin Assembly looks fine in all respects. This assembly is held in position by the one small Torx screw. It is possible that this assembly is not mounted properly ie. it needs to be advanced or ******** slightly by elongating the hole in the assembly, rotate slightly forward or back slightly and tighten the screw firmly.

I have seen some posts where this is the case and on my 2002 Export CRD Manual Gearbox I had a problem after a few years of ownership. On the Manual version I would normally turn the ignition ON, press down the clutch to pick the clutch override Relay, turn ignition switch to Start and the engine would fire and run.

Suddenly after a few years I would turn ignition ON and as soon as I depressed the clutch pedal the engine would fire up!

So I had to elongate the hole in the Actuator Pin Assembly and rotate it a bit so the switch would not make until I turned the ignition to Start.

So some of these Actuator Pin Assemblies may be manufactured on the edge of working and after a few years suddenly the ignition switch makes too soon or too late!

 

[Brendon Holt]

@Billwill since jumping the starter relay bypasses everything with the ignition switch and he still got the click no start scenario a few times doesn't that rule out the actuator pin? (Still dig into it and check it out, OP) If the issue was solely the actuator pin then jumping the starter relay should just cause it to crank right over and fire up, right? But it doesn't. I guess it's possible there are multiple issues going on here on both the ignition side and the battery/starter/wiring side and so not only does it not just start easily by jumping the relay it ALSO has some issue somewhere that makes it WORSE when starting via the key *shrug*

 

[Billwill]

Yeah I agree with you Brendon...does seem to be several issues here.

Best to check out the Actuator Pin assembly first as that could be one of the culprits and this is an old Jeep!

We need to wait for the OP to get another Starter Motor fitted and then see how it goes....possibly a wiring issue...will need to connect a voltmeter to the solenoid terminals and see if +12 volts gets there every time the key is turned and then trace back from there all the way to the Starter Relay and then back even more if needed!

Electrical problems can be a major problem to trace but such things have put a roof over my head and food on my table over the years!

 

[TikiX]

Got the new starter in, and it seems to have solved the problem!
It starts strong and first time every time so far, so I’m very happy and relieved.
I realize there still could be other weaknesses in the system, namely the battery and the actuator pin, but for now it’s good.
My friend put a his old school tester on the battery, it has a old style needle meter. When he switched the load test on, the needle stayed in the ‘good’ range but just barely, it was right at the edge before ‘weak’ or whatever the lesser range was called. So I think a new battery is in the near future.
I watched a video on replacing the actuator pin, so I now know where it is and how it works. That also may be in the near future, from hearing you guys say how common of an issue it is.

 

[LibertyTC]

Ya at the edge of weak depends on needle placement & if fully charged.
In this next photo if along the top line it was close to yellow that reads 1000CCA and a very strong battery.
If reading along the bottom scale that would be 200CCA.
You want to see it hold at least 600 to 800 CCA on the scale after a 15 second load test.
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If replacement is necessary? Please consider buying a new AGM (absorb glass mat) Fully sealed, you will not get corrosion ever again to terminals. They are more powerful as well than lead acid batteries& and last longer.
Napa AGM, Excide edge Agm, Dekka, Legend AGM & (Osyssey are the best) lasting me now over 9 years and passes a load test.
The old style needle meter applies a 100 amp load, but it is best to take off both battery terminals, before hooking up that tester. Don't want to damage the alt diodes.

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I normally apply a 15 second load, and a low CCA = new battery time.
In cold temps you can loose 40 % easily and it may fail to start.
In Group 34/78 batteries try to find at least an 800CCA rated battery.

 

[TikiX]

Good info, LibertyTC, thanks.
For now she’s going to run with the current battery and see how it goes. If she does end up replacing, I think cost will be a big factor for her and that may rule out an agm but we’ll see.

 

[Brendon Holt]

I think because you still had a click-no-start when jumping the starter relay most of your issues are probably localized to a faulty starter. But if it acts up again I'd definitely dig into that actuator pin. It's a notorious failure point.