Right to repair laws in works.!!!

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JeepINgeek

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http://jalopnik.com/5590652/right-to-repair-laws-good-for-consumers

Legislators in Massachusetts have introduced a "right to repair" bill forcing automakers to publish repair and diagnostic software reserved for dealerships, so you and your local mechanic have access. Sound like common sense? Predictably, manufactures are fighting to kill it.

The notion of "right to repair" is simple enough. When you take your car into a service station for repair, you expect it to be done quickly and efficiently. One problem is that manufactures reserve some critical diagnostic software for their dealership repair shops and do not make it available to every mom and pop station. For certain repairs, it's necessary for independent repair shops to take the car to the dealership to finish a repair, thus incurring additional cost and wasting time, both of which are a detriment to the consumer.

This is common practice in the industry and among the eleven manufactures which make up the Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers, the group putting the most dollars into lobbying against the bill. Their argument against making diagnostic and repair software available to all service stations is a concern over intellectual property. According to manufacturers, making such software available for sale or license would accelerate the counterfeit parts market.

Proponents of the bill — like James O'Day and 33 like-minded representatives co-sponsoring the bill — don't see a reason for concern over the topic. There's nothing in the bill which specifically requires sale of intellectual property to competing parts manufacturers, and there doesn't have to be. The bill recently passed in the Senate and is awaiting debate in the House, but the AAM is still fighting it — something they've has successfully done for almost a decade since RTR legislation first reared its head.

The alternate and unspoken motivation for fighting this legislation cannot be ignored though: making critical software available to competing service stations would mean a loss in profits for dealer repair shops. Keeping some software in-house means dealerships hold the keys to critical repairs, and guarantees some level of profit coming from customers who don't even walk in their doors always makes dealers happu. The fight isn't really about counterfeit parts, it's about keeping the dealership network fat and happy and limiting outside competition.

The situation is nothing new, it's business being protecting its own interests which many times conflicts with what's more than likely good for the consumer. What do you think? Considering the horror stories common at dealership repair shops, the idea of giving your local mechanic — or us as do-it-yourself gearheads — access to all the factory software is one we can get behind, even if it risks the chance of a couple more cheap Chinese parts muddying the aftermarket waters.

[Massachusetts Right To Repair, AP]

Photo credit: Justin Sullivan/Getty Images
 

ThunderbirdJunkie

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The government needs to make up its mind.

They forced all automobile manufacturers to be OBDII compliant by 1996. Now they want to force automobile manufacturers to let proprietary engineering documents become public.
 

tjkj2002

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The government needs to make up its mind.

They forced all automobile manufacturers to be OBDII compliant by 1996. Now they want to force automobile manufacturers to let proprietary engineering documents become public.
X2

Yeah not fair to the auto industry to have to let there R&D be public info.If this happens I want the repair info on a B2 bomber,only seems fair.

Or how about when your Iphone or Ipod needs repair,you can not take it just anywhere to be fixed,that will need to be changed.


Oh then wait for the repair bills you see then when those mom and pop stores have to buy that $10,000 scanner to use those programs.
 
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Midgear

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I don't see that big of an issue with how it's currently working.. if you need a simple repair, go to a shop. if you need serious diagnostics AND repairs, go to the dealership. I've never felt ***** or overcharged while getting a part repaired at the dealer, and I've been there more than once. the prices were fairly reasonable-
 

osufans

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i don't see why there needs to be any protectionism regarding proprietary software. why should the dealers be the ONLY businesses that are allowed to buy these critical systems? it's not like the auto manufacturers own the dealerships, the dealers are merely a licensed distributor. there is no benefit to the auto manufacturer by only allowing dealers to purchase these systems.

if anything, you should see the cost of repairs go down, because now competing service shops will be able to purchase these "critical" diagnostic machines, and following the trend of free market, when you have a higher production of goods, the overall production cost goes down, which tends to decrease the price of said good.

in this case, the auto manufacturers would likely benefit, because now they should be selling many more of these units. dealers on the other hand, would lose out. and i can see where the auto manufacturers/dealers are going here with trying to maintain that monopoly; once you start losing customer traffic, you start losing new car sales.

now, regarding the protection of the propriety systems, i'm not saying that the hardware/software be made open to competing manufacturers. i'm only saying that there's no reason that Chrysler couldn't sell their system to Joe's Mechanic shop.
 

tjkj2002

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now, regarding the protection of the propriety systems, i'm not saying that the hardware/software be made open to competing manufacturers. i'm only saying that there's no reason that Chrysler couldn't sell their system to Joe's Mechanic shop.
Anyone can buy a DRBIII or Starscan.................

http://www.oemtools.com/homeproducts/chrysler.html

But you have to buy the "flashes" and programs from Chrysler and they are not cheap and are a one time use only program.

What that law wants is to release those propriety software to the public free of charge.
 

Clyde Frog

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I don't think it should be released free of charge. I'm surprised this dumb state does though - they love their taxes and would lick their lips at the sales tax they'd receive.

Why should the car company hand out for free what it had to pay engineers to create and patent?

Good ol' Massachusetts. Always wanting everything but not willing to give anything in return.
 

osufans

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Anyone can buy a DRBIII or Starscan.................

http://www.oemtools.com/homeproducts/chrysler.html

But you have to buy the "flashes" and programs from Chrysler and they are not cheap and are a one time use only program.

What that law wants is to release those propriety software to the public free of charge.

Why are they a one-time use? I guess I would think of it more like a subscription, where upon subscribing to Manufacturer X Service Software, you should be able to get any and all updates for any vehicle. Again, that's where I see the issue.

They are trying to force you to go to a dealer, which are fewer and farther between than most auto shops around me. I have a reputable mechanic 5 minutes from my house, but if I want Chrysler diagnostics done, I have my choice of the dealer that couldn't fix my van, and is still about 25 minutes away, or I can go to the city and drive about 35 minutes. Neither of those dealers are close to my job or on the way to "run an errand."

And TBJ, you don't have to take your computer to Microsoft to get it fixed. Same concept here.
 

ThunderbirdJunkie

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You don't have to take your Jeep to a Jeep dealership to get fixed.

Do you have any clue how many years it's been since ThunderbirdJunkie's Jeep has been in a dealer?
 

tjkj2002

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Why are they a one-time use? I guess I would think of it more like a subscription, where upon subscribing to Manufacturer X Service Software, you should be able to get any and all updates for any vehicle. Again, that's where I see the issue.

They are trying to force you to go to a dealer, which are fewer and farther between than most auto shops around me. I have a reputable mechanic 5 minutes from my house, but if I want Chrysler diagnostics done, I have my choice of the dealer that couldn't fix my van, and is still about 25 minutes away, or I can go to the city and drive about 35 minutes. Neither of those dealers are close to my job or on the way to "run an errand."

And TBJ, you don't have to take your computer to Microsoft to get it fixed. Same concept here.
If you buy a DRBIII or Starscan they come fully programed to read up to there current model years as the scanner is designed for.The programs and "flashes" for updated trans software and programming a PCM/TCM is a function of those OEM scanners after they have the correct programs downloaded from Chryslers website(dealer access only).Those type of programs are costly to make and the programs that they want to be free to the public.

With that kind of access I could steel your Chrysler vehicle very easily with just your VIN #,just a simple plug and play to bypass any OEM security.


Like TBJ said you do not need to go to the dealership for 99% of any repairs.The repairs needed to be done at a dealership are programming PCM/TCM's,ABS modules,programming keyfobs(if you only have one),and updating "PROM" memory for PCM/TCM's(aka Flashes) since that requires downloads from Chrysler directly.Now if the shop you so choose to go to does not wnat to spend the money to buy the correct equipment to daig your Jeep then you should look for another that will(or has already).


Right now I can go and buy a scanner that has all the ability's of every OEM scanner(even programming if I had access to there websites) and then some,heck it can even download netflix as it has wifi built in.Though after all the bells and whistles are added it would cost me $14,000+,that's a big investment,even for a independent shop.
 

ThunderbirdJunkie

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Netflix on a scanner? Good thing ThunderbirdJunkie wasn't doing this shit when that thing came out and it fell in his hands (rotflmao)
 

ThunderbirdJunkie

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Why are they a one-time use? I guess I would think of it more like a subscription, where upon subscribing to Manufacturer X Service Software, you should be able to get any and all updates for any vehicle. Again, that's where I see the issue.

They are trying to force you to go to a dealer, which are fewer and farther between than most auto shops around me. I have a reputable mechanic 5 minutes from my house, but if I want Chrysler diagnostics done, I have my choice of the dealer that couldn't fix my van, and is still about 25 minutes away, or I can go to the city and drive about 35 minutes. Neither of those dealers are close to my job or on the way to "run an errand."

And TBJ, you don't have to take your computer to Microsoft to get it fixed. Same concept here.

Going to re-respond to this with things that ThunderbirdJunkie deemed too "rude" to say before.
Your mechanic is a cheap MFer that doesn't understand that cars are getting more advanced, and he needs to get more advanced as well. IF he had an up-to-date scanner he could do LITERALLY ANYTHING he wanted to ANY car. Even with an eight year old Genesys scanner you can do a transmission relearn after dropping the pan, watch turbine speed, watch fuel trims etc etc and so forth on a KJ.

This is EXACTLY like a former employer who shall remain nameless that lost out on tens of thousands of dollars because they refused to spend a few grand on a new scanner or even update their old scanner to CAN bus capability.

And of COURSE they're trying to "force" you to go to a dealer. KNOW WHY? Because the DEALER depends on that, and Chrysler depends on the dealers buying parts for vehicles.
It's simply a GOOD BUSINESS DECISION.
If you don't like it, nobody's FORCING you to drive a late model vehicle. This is like buying a Chrysler Turbine car, and then ******** that nobody knows how to properly diagnose it and you have to drive far to find somebody that's qualified to work on it.
 
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offrovering

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the problem is, it isnt R&D, and you own the vehicle. You have the right to make a decision on where and how you want to have the vehicle fixed.

I don't like when specific components are "locked out" without a dealer only device.

What they will do to get around this is offer the "keys" to components and systems and make them very expensive so mom and pop shops and DIYer's wont want to pay to play.
 

offrovering

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Yeah and I want to do what I want with the house I own but those stupid HOA's make me do this and that and pay them money at the same time.

That's life get over it.

thats not a great example, you pay HOA fees for the area where your home is situated and for the opportunity and for value protection against the potential downgrade in the area. You had the choice to live in an area with a HOA.

A vehicle is different. You should have the right to know how something needs to be fixed or who can fix it for you.

Like I said, the way around it is the cost to play. Diagnostic equipment isnt cheap. If I don't feel like paying for it then it was my choice.
 

tjkj2002

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thats not a great example, you pay HOA fees for the area where your home is situated and for the opportunity and for value protection against the potential downgrade in the area. You had the choice to live in an area with a HOA.

A vehicle is different. You should have the right to know how something needs to be fixed or who can fix it for you.

Like I said, the way around it is the cost to play. Diagnostic equipment isnt cheap. If I don't feel like paying for it then it was my choice.
Same concept,many HOA's are forced on people nowdays.

You can figure out how something needs to be fixed,heck I tell customers everyday how and why.If you choose not to pay the diagnostic fees that is your choice,you just don't get your vehicle fixed,see that everyday also.If you do not like the prices do it yourself,if you do not know well learn and you will see what techs like myself have to do everyday.One thing is you get the luxury of only having to learn about one thing and may have a unlimited time to fix it,we don't,we are on a very short time table if we want to be able to pay the bills like you do.If I do a certain job enough I have no problem dropping $1000+ on a special tool that will cut that jobs time in half,that makes it profitable for me so I can pay my bills.
 

osufans

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Going to re-respond to this with things that ThunderbirdJunkie deemed too "rude" to say before.
Your mechanic is a cheap MFer that doesn't understand that cars are getting more advanced, and he needs to get more advanced as well. IF he had an up-to-date scanner he could do LITERALLY ANYTHING he wanted to ANY car. Even with an eight year old Genesys scanner you can do a transmission relearn after dropping the pan, watch turbine speed, watch fuel trims etc etc and so forth on a KJ.

This is EXACTLY like a former employer who shall remain nameless that lost out on tens of thousands of dollars because they refused to spend a few grand on a new scanner or even update their old scanner to CAN bus capability.

And of COURSE they're trying to "force" you to go to a dealer. KNOW WHY? Because the DEALER depends on that, and Chrysler depends on the dealers buying parts for vehicles.
It's simply a GOOD BUSINESS DECISION.
If you don't like it, nobody's FORCING you to drive a late model vehicle. This is like buying a Chrysler Turbine car, and then ******** that nobody knows how to properly diagnose it and you have to drive far to find somebody that's qualified to work on it.

Since you apparently can't read, I never said that my mechanic doesn't have these tools. I was merely playing devil's advocate to you and TJKJ's position that this is bad for business.

And you just qualified one of my first statements, that it is just about keeping the customer in the dealership.

And like you, I avoid the dealer at all costs. The only stuff I take my vehicles to the dealer for are warranty repairs.

You need to cool off before you spout off to people you don't know. Much as I hate to spend the money, my mechanic is pretty good and has gotten the job done when I needed him to. But your assumptions that he is cheap and doesn't know what he is doing really pi$$es me off, because all I see on this site are a couple of trolls who call themselves "experienced" and then spout off their opinions like they are the end-all be-all to every situation.

While I respect your experience and learning history, you all have apparently not learned how to be respectful of others' opinions. There's more than two ways to skin a bird. Maybe I just caught you in a bad mood, much like I probably am today, but this isn't the first time I've seen this from you.
 
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