Question about brakes/ABS

[bushleaguer]

Hi,

I'm in the market for a Liberty, and I've narrowed my choices down to 2 (in accordance with my budget).
One is an '03 with ABS (has 28K miles on it).......the other is an '04 without.
The 2003 is certified but, with the 3 month basic extention, will only have 6 months under basic warranty.
The 2004 doesn't have ABS, but has low mileage (16K) and 23 months left on the basic warranty (not certified).

My question is this - for those who have KJ's without ABS, do you find that the brakes lock up excessively? I was reading a review site, and one person brought up the fact that his Liberty locked up too much and that one time he went skidding through an intersection when the light was red. Now, I don't know if he was doing 40 through sloppy snow and this was the cause of his near-accident, but he sounded pretty adamant about the lack of ABS and the detriment it is.

So should I forsake the longer warranty and go with the ABS model, or was this person's statement exxagerated?
Also, do you find the braking to be sufficient? I've test driven 2 so far, but it's difficult to judge given the brevity of a test drive.

Thanks for the help.....can't wait to join the KJ family!

 

[liberator]

True

I would say his story is true but more importantly the issue is the crappy tires which are too hard to grip properly in wet.

Do a search here and see all about the Badyear ST/RSA stock rubber.

I have ABS and what it offers is the ability to steer in a sudden stop and minimize skidding... that given your tires have traction.

ABS is not an attribute while 4x4ing/crawling I am told but I will let more experienced 4x4 ppl offer advice on that.

 

[Watty]

According to the technical guys at the local Jeep dealership the ABS system is actually disengaged by the on-board computer system when the vehicle is shifted into low ratio 4x4 so as not to interfere with serious off-road crawling. In my opinion having ABS is a big plus as a safety factor when driving on hard surfaces at highway speeds and not losing control during a sudden foot stomping on the brake pedal.

As a suggestion, find out what the costs will be to install ABS on the 2004 model. Perhaps this route may be a better overall solution to decide which KJ to buy.

 

[kjk]

I have not had any problems with my 02, without ABS. Although I have drums in the rear (and no it's not a personal problem). ABS is a nice safety option to have, however it is not a decision maker for me.

 

[4Factor]

ABS is a funny issue, you can sit on the fence over buying/not buying it, and you can hear many sides of a good argument mostly depending on which side responds to the message first and starts the ball rolling in one direction.
I personally have problems with believing 100% in ABS, but it's been weird situations that have caused this belief. For most normal situations ABS will cause you to remain in control of the vehicle and allow you a better chance of avoiding an accident (better than if the brakes locked and you continued in a straight line). However if you're on pure ice, or in very loose gravel, ABS will actually be worse. I've never come across any trend that suggests that the ABS on the Liberty is a bad idea, sure there's problems, but we only hear about the bad situations. If there was a problem, people will complain here at the forum, but we don't see many messages about "my ABS works". Things that work as they should won't receive any messages.
A situation I've come across was when following a friend and we hit a street covered in pure ice. He tried to stop for the stop sign and the ABS kept unlocking the brakes so often that the brakes weren't applied enough to cause any slowing. He slid through the intersection with his speed barely reduced at all. Sure I slid, but without ABS, I was actually causing a small amount of friction, and I managed to stop for the intersection.
I've been told the same principle will apply when in very loose gravel/sand but I haven't had the cause to try it.
Also couple that with the frequency of breakage of the early ABS systems and the huge $1000+ (CAD) repair bill and I'm more likely to stay away from ABS. I'm sure technology is much better today and the systems don't break nearly as often, but I don't need the possible expense.
So that's the side of the fence I sit on, but honestly, in your case I would disregard the ABS issue and choose the vehicle you're happier with. Look at the other equipment such as what ****** does the '03 have? Easy way to tell is to look at the space in the '04 passenger footwell. If the '03 has exactly the same space, then the '03 has the smaller ******. If the '03 passenger footwell has way less space than the '04 then that means the '03 has the bigger (more rugged) ****** (forget this idea if either one is manual). Also look at the transfer case shifter... look for a 4WD "FULL TIME" option. Everything else aside I'd choose the vehicle with the "FULL TIME" option... better known as the Selec-Trac transfer case.

Here's what I would look at (notice, I don't care whether it has ABS or not)

#1 - Select-Trac transfer case (look for the "FULL TIME" selection)
#2 - Green tag on the rear axle (means Trac-Loc... limited slip... rear differential)
#3 - Build date before July 01, 2003 (means larger, more rugged ******... reduces passenger side foot space)
#4 - Skid plates (there's 3... visually they're in the front, middle, and the gas tank)
#5 - Tow Package
#6 - Any mods that previous owner might have done (rock rails or other armor)
#7 - Cool factor (this is personal preference, leather heated or cloth seats, exterior colour, EVIC... overhead computer system, sunroof, etc)

 

[grogiefrog]

ABS is fun in snow! (biggrin)

I like it. I agree with 4Factor, look for selec-trac and trac-loc first. If you can get all three, then even better! I did!

I use to have a couple of RX-7's, and I wish that they had had ABS to keep the backend in line during hard breaking.

The TJ I have on order is arriving with ABS. I had to special order it, as you cannot find one on the lot with that option.

 

[CHUD]

should I forsake the longer warranty and go with the ABS model, or was this person's statement exxagerated?
Also, do you find the braking to be sufficient? I've test driven 2 so far, but it's difficult to judge given the brevity of a test drive.

Thanks for the help.....can't wait to join the KJ family!

Don't forget that insurers will offer a discount on liability, PIP & collision premiums for ABS equipped vehicles, so the ABS model may be cheaper to insure.

I have ABS & have been very happy with its performance, but the tires are still the biggest issue. My ABS would engage ALL THE TIME when I was running the stock Eagle RS-As. Once I swapped in the Yoko's, the ABS rarely engages.

 

[JeepJeepster]

Ive had my jeep lock up on me once, a dog ran out in front of me in the rain. I dont think that abs makes ur stopping distance shorter does it? I think it can actually make it longer. If u know how to use a non abs jeep, urll be fine. Ohh and with the 235/65/17 i can not lock them up on dry pavement, it just cant happen.

 

[Marlon_JB2]

I have an '04 without ABS.

I've had to make my share of panic stops.... 2 of them lately with these new tires. With the old Goodyear Wrangler STs, I'd always lock up no matter the conditions. These new tires haven't locked up once. I'd contribute the wheel lock up more on tires than the lack of ABS.

I've learned how to control the vehicle without ABS. It's actually the easiest non-ABS vehicle I've ever driven. Did I mention steering is very responsive?

I've saved me and my KJ's lives tons of times. If you're gonna get the '04, I recommend dumping the stock tires if the previous owner hadn't already.

 

[LibertyCRD]

I'll put it this way:

My wife's '04 has NO ABS.

My '05 does have ABS.

As far as trusting them in an emergency situation, I'd rather be driving my wife's non-ABS any day of the week. Period. ABS gets down right scary when you only have X-amount of feet to get your vehicle stopped in.

 

[CHUD]

ABS gets down right scary when you only have X-amount of feet to get your vehicle stopped in.

While I respect your opinion, ABS's entire function is to give you that few extra feet you need to stop by enabling you to STEER AROUND THE OBSTACLE THAT YOU ARE ABOUT TO HIT, thus giving you extra time to stop.

I know I'm beating a dead horse here, but ABS won't decrease your stopping distance because that's not it's intended function. It's like everything else, you need to know how to use it to benefit from it.

IMO, given the choice, I'd take your 05 KJ over the Mrs. KJ any day of the week. But that's only me.

 

[-=JoN=-]

I'd take ABS anyday....
thing is, dealers should give you a demo on how it works...in real world
most ppl that hasnt felt abs will panic even more and let go of the pedal.
but...as what everyone else sez....dump the stock tires..they are CRAP!

Len (CHUD) and a few others heard me bitch enough bout the bad years...
everytime it was wet out, it was always and adventure....LoL

 

[dnm45227]

ABS is ok, but if you just pump your brakes and pay attention you shouldn't need a computer to "think" for you. That's just me though.
I know the computer is more efficient, but I look at it this way. I can pump the brakes if I have to, but if it's an oh $hit stop, I want to be able to lock 'em up.

 

[VTNomad]

ABS

ABS is a safety net for those who don't know how to brake, or haven't learned yet. My 04 doesn't have ABS, which I didn't realize at the time, but I'm glad it doesn't. I thought everything nowadays had ABS standard. I feel more in control of the vehicle. I've only locked the brakes up once, the third day I had the Jeep. There was a rear end collision right in front of me and I was trying not to be third in line. That was probably my fault for not being familiar with an non-ABS braking system. I've been in one situation since then, when a pickup made an abrupt right turn. We were travelling about 60mph and he had NO brake lights or turn signals. I didn't lock them up that time.

Drive both, mash down on the brakes hard, don't slam on them and try to lock them up, and see which one you prefer. If you like the idea of the safety net go with the 02. If it's an older 02 it sits a little higher. It's considered "pre-lowered".

 

[bushleaguer]

Thanks for all of the advise, everyone.

Well, I went with the '03 because it was better equipped and I figured that the lack of warranty could be offset by the lower price and a purchase of an extended warranty (which I did). The one dealership with the '04 wouldn't budge past 17,900.....and this was for a no-frills, basic Sport. The '03 Sport I got had a navigation system, power windows and mirrors, the select-trac 4-wheel drive, anti-lock brakes, fog lamps, keyless entry, and so on.
One thing....I noticed that it was manufactured in 1/03, so I figured I'd be getting it with the beefier transmission that some have mentioned, but the original window sticker was included with the owner's manual and it lists the Liberty as having teh 42RLE ******. I do notice that it is slow to shift into a lower gear when going up an incline (auto transmission), but otherwise I have no complaints.
I haven't driven it very far yet, but I am thrilled with it.....can't wait until the snow arrives here in the the Northeast when I can test out it's 4x4 prowess. My last 2 vehicles have been cars, and I won't miss not being able to get out of a parking space after work without piles of sand underneath the tires and a person in the back giving it a push.

One thing that ticked me off was the insane self-promotion that the dealership added to it. Not only does it have the license plate brackets on ready for the plates, but the also gave me a free spare tire cover with the dealerships name and website address on it. All of this is easily disposed of, but what killed me was the 2 stickers they put on the rear tailgate. They were the stencil-type and included the dealership's name, a line underneath that, and then the location. I mean.....when did it become accepted practice to adhere these things directly on the paint?!? I was treated well by the dealership, but I don't need to be a mobile billboard for them. You'd think it was a friggin' loaner car with all of the advertisements.
As soon as I got home I started peeling the letters off with my fingernail. One came off easily....the other must have been on there longer and was very difficult (both were already on when I went to look at it....otherwise I would have told them not to stick anything on the vehicle before I purchased it). The difficult one left a bunch of adhesive residue, so I broke out the rubbing alcohol and took it off. Much to my chagrin, you could still see the imprint of each individual letter....almost as if the adhesive had melted ever so slightly into the clearcoat. So I broke out an orange-based adhesive remover and gave it a gentle once-over. No luck.....the imprint is still there. Needless to say, I'm pissed.
I guess I will try using a clearcoat compound on the whole tailgate and then giving it a coat of wax and see what that does. It's not the end of the world....I can always put a bumper sticker to cover it. But I shouldn't have to - and the dealership shouldn't feel it has the right to stick not one but TWO of their f'ing stickers to what I am purchasing. Where else does this happen? You don't go into Macy's and walk out with a shirt with "Macy's" stiched into a Polo shirt. You don't go into Sears and have them stick a bunch of "Sears" stickers on the refrigerator you just bought. Hindsight being what it is, I should have directed them to take them off before taking delivery....but I was more focused on the condition of the car and making sure everything worked properly at the time. Now I'm left with an imprint of their freakin advertising. I contacted their customer relations department about it, and they said they are "easily removed." Yeah, right. Hopefully it will come out. If anyone has any suggestions, I would be eternally grateful.

Thanks again for all of the advise. I'm glad to be part of the Liberty family!

 

[bushleaguer]

Just to update my previous post - The lettering imprint came out with some liquid clearcoat compound. It took 3 applications, but you can't see it anymore. I gave the area a nice coat of wax for protection and it's all good. So for those who end up with dealership stickers - be patient with the removal.....use a gentle solvent (rubbing alcohol or an orange-based is a good choice) to get the excess adhesive off......and a clearcoat compound to remove the outline.

I still wonder....why do dealerships think they have the right to plaster their advertising on a vehicle you buy? At the very least they should ask (of course it's in their best interest to slap the stickers on and make it a fait accompli situation) for permission.

 

[JeepJeepster]

ive locked my jeep up around 3 times in the past couple of days.(first time its rained in days so they roads were slick) I had 2 dogs run out in front of me and 2 more started to but didnt. I said to my self the next dog that runs out infront of me is getting hit, thank goodness no more did. I was in my moms corolla and had a cat run out infront of me on a dry and road locked them up, i swear the cat had to of bounced off the bumper b/c i didnt see it for a couple of sec and thought it was gone, but then i saw it run out the side of my eye. both these do not have abs. The only time i wish i was abs is when im going around a corner in the rain and my jeep starts to slide/push. If u apply the brakes at all u slide even more but if i had abs i could give them some brake bring me out of the slide.

 

[Watty]

ABS brakes carry out cadence braking at a much faster and more effective rate than any human can - dozens of times per second. They also enjoy the benefit of working only on the wheel that is losing traction, while driver-induced cadence braking affects even the wheels that are still turning.

How does the system work? Wheel sensors monitor how fast each wheel is spinning, and the moment they detect that a wheel is locked they notify head office, a CPU that releases the braking on that wheel until it starts to turn again. The process is repeated until no more slippage is detected, whereupon the system backs off and allows the driver to resume full control. ABS systems intervene only when the sensors detect that a skid is starting, so a car with good tyres on a good road in dry weather will not stop any faster than a car without ABS. In bad conditions, though, ABS can reduce stopping distances by around 25%, and the driver will also be able to retain control of the direction the car is travelling.

As they say about guns, it's better to have them and not need them than need them and not have them. You won't be aware that your car has ABS brakes until they start working, and then you'll be extremely grateful. When the system starts its high-speed cadence routine you'll probably feel a rapid pulsing through the brake pedal, often accompanied by a devilish din - a grinding sound that makes you feel that something has gone horribly wrong mechanically. Whatever you do, don't release the brakes when that happens, as some drivers do. You just make it harder for the system to catch up with rapidly changing events when you stand on the pedal again. Keep the brakes *******, and don't forget to steer away from the object you look like colliding with.

It's also important to remember that in most situations ABS brakes won't allow your car to stop any faster than it would with non-ABS brakes. In bad conditions they'll be far less than a match for non-ABS brakes in the dry. They just make the situation a lot easier to handle when things go wrong. For that reason it's important to always maintain a safe following distance. ABS brakes may be skid-proof, but they're not idiot-proof.

 

[mwright186]

I've had many vehicles, some with ABS and some without (current Liberty). Luckily, I've never had an accident in any of them, although I have slid through stop signs in both kinds. The vast majority of the time I've been able to make good controlled stops in bad situations. You just have to be aware of what type of brakes you have and how to use them properly.

Too much steering - such as from jerking the wheel while braking - can send an ABS-equipped vehicle out of control.

Improper steering in vehicles equipped with antilock brakes (ABS) can send the vehicle veering dramatically out of control, the AAA Foundation for Traffic Safety has found. "When drivers are about to hit something, they often panic, jam on the brakes, and jerk the wheel," says David K. Willis, president of the AAA Foundation for Traffic Safety. "If the car has antilock brakes it will respond to the extreme steering and run off the road."

The AAA Foundation for Traffic Safety tested cars with and without antilock brakes. At 35 mph, a panic stop combined with a violent jerk of the steering wheel caused an ABS-equipped car to dart across two lane widths, enough to send the vehicle into oncoming traffic or off the roadway. The same action in a car without antilock brakes locked the wheels so the car skidded forward in the lane but hit the obstruction.

"In a study of crash records the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) found that ABS cars had more single-vehicle, run-off-the-road crashes than cars without ABS," Willis says. "The cars without ABS had more crashes with other vehicles, pedestrians, and cyclists." For this reason, automobile insurers such as USAA and Allstate have announced that discounts for ABS equipped vehicles will cease. Research shows no substantial difference in claims between vehicles equipped with ABS and those without.

The Foundation's tests, conducted on August 26, 1997 at the Transportation Research Center in East Liberty, Ohio, apparently confirm the theory that while ABS allows drivers to steer around an obstacle in an emergency, too much steering -- such as from jerking the wheel while braking -- sends the vehicle out of control. While the ABS is pumping the brakes very rapidly, the wheels continue turning. The driver retains control over the vehicle's steering, and may be able to steer around an obstacle, such as the car in front of you.

With ABS, drivers are not supposed to pump the brake. The brake pedal of an ABS-equipped vehicle behaves quite differently when ABS engages. A loud grating sound and rapid brake pedal pulsation often accompanies the braking action with ABS, which may alarm the driver. Many drivers mistakenly believe this vibration or pulsating sensation on the brake pedal signals a fault in the system. These drivers then begin to pump the pedal or simply lift off the brake pedal. This defeats the ABS system.

 

[jimmie's 05]

I kicked myself for not abs on mine 2 weeks ago I was on the freeway at 9:30 at night doing 65 when a full grown Rottweiler I think it was ran out in to traffic i stepped on the brakes and swerved to miss him next thing i know the front tires lock up and I slide in to the middle divider good news no body damage but had to buy 2 renegade rims total cost was 375-400 bucks AND A WEEK OF TOTAL CAOS ](*,)