overheating, voltage, wiring, amp (Renamed for usage)

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polomaan

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I'm installing my 10" Kicker L5 and 500/1 RMS amp today afterwork (woo hoo!). I am not replacing the factory Head Unit so I need to use the speaker level inputs for the amp. First of all, the amp(a kenwood) is so cool because it has a speaker level adaptor that you splice the wires into and then a phone cord runs to the amplifier to give it signal (SWEET \:D/ ). I am going to splice the speaker wires in the rear driver side door. How do I get the panel off? Any diagrams? Thanks guys! I'm ready for the BOOM BOOM \:D/ \:D/ \:D/ \:D/ \:D/ (can you tell I'm excited?!) OH- THERE WILL BE PICS OF INSTALL
 

jfortier777

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Hey.... why do it in the door?

The same speaker wires are sitting right behing your factory HU and could be tapped in a matter of 1-2 mintutes. I havent taken the door panels off before but I'd imagine its harder than a little piece of trim.


A PHONE LINE! Thats the coolest thing ever. I've seen phone lines used for bass control knobs and other controls but never as a high lvl input plug. You have to take a couple pictures of that thing. LOL.

I built a small setup with an 8" L5 (in the photobucket) and I was just blown away by the potential for quality. I like the 10" L5 even better, and have been considering a setup with 2 10" L5s in the future. Although if you really really want to reap the benefit of that beautiful driver you should really consider swapping an aftermarket HU.

I just happen to have pulled my old one out yesterday since I upgraded, and if you are interested I could probably give you a good deal on it. (Its a bad ass HU)
 

polomaan

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overheating, voltage, wiring, amp

Ok my sub is in and sounds wonderful... except that the amp gets hot #-o ... I think it's possibly a couple of things so i have a few Q's for anybody willing to help.

1. What is the voltage going to the speakers on a standard sound system? I am using speaker level inputs and need to know how to set the amp.

2. Where is a good place to tap into an ACC line for the amp turn on wire? My amp is under my front seat :).

3. I just realized I have the polarities from the speaker splice to the amp input reversed...could that cause overheating? I will also adjust the gain.

4. My Kicker L5 rocks my lib. Last night at 4am when I finished the install I took it for a test drive and it was loud!...the dang amp just got hot, haha....it wasn't the level so don't worry... this morn on the way to work I played it really low and it still got hot (10 minutes)...

Thanks all! Will post pics if I am alive tonight (sleep deprivation, the things we do for the lib)
 

polomaan

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sorry for the double post....
jfortier777 said:
I just happen to have pulled my old one out yesterday since I upgraded, and if you are interested I could probably give you a good deal on it. (Its a bad ass HU)

What brand/model? I like the stock look a lot which is keeping me from upgrading... I feel sneaky with a sub and a stock HU, haha, it's like...oh what's that? BASS!!!!!!!
 

Se7enLC

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polomaan said:
First of all, the amp(a kenwood) is so cool because it has a speaker level adaptor that you splice the wires into and then a phone cord runs to the amplifier to give it signal (SWEET \:D/ ).

I dunno about using phone cord for audio applications.... While I'm sure it will technically work, I don't know that it was really designed with that purpose in mind. Phone lines are designed with a particular range of frequencies in mind (human speech, around 200Hz to 4000Hz). The phone company actually uses a bandpass to limit it to those frequencies to improve the quality. Human hearing on the other hand can range from as low as 10-20Hz up to 20kHz. So if all you listen to is talk radio, you might be fine - but if you want to really crank out the bass, I would suggest a higher-quality line, maybe just normal speaker cable, or better yet, something shielded.

But I wouldn't hesitate to use the phone cable for anything digital - phone cable is twisted pair just like ethernet cable is, so it's quite good at all things digital.
 

jfortier777

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Se7enLC said:
I dunno about using phone cord for audio applications.... While I'm sure it will technically work, I don't know that it was really designed with that purpose in mind. Phone lines are designed with a particular range of frequencies in mind (human speech, around 200Hz to 4000Hz). The phone company actually uses a bandpass to limit it to those frequencies to improve the quality. Human hearing on the other hand can range from as low as 10-20Hz up to 20kHz. So if all you listen to is talk radio, you might be fine - but if you want to really crank out the bass, I would suggest a higher-quality line, maybe just normal speaker cable, or better yet, something shielded.

But I wouldn't hesitate to use the phone cable for anything digital - phone cable is twisted pair just like ethernet cable is, so it's quite good at all things digital.


Phone line is fine. There wont be any signal limiting. All the amp needs is a wire; it doesnt really "care" what kind of wire or what kind of application. Since the speakers are recieving high voltage , the signal wire can be very small and thin. A phone line is almost ideal for this application.
 

Se7enLC

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jfortier777 said:
Phone line is fine. There wont be any signal limiting. All the amp needs is a wire; it doesnt really "care" what kind of wire or what kind of application. Since the speakers are recieving high voltage , the signal wire can be very small and thin. A phone line is almost ideal for this application.

Well, the amp doesn't care, it just amplifies what it gets - but the cable itself will have some losses and noise, so the signal that the amp gets will be already noisy, and thus noisier once it is amplified.

To put it another way, why would anybody pay for expensive gold-plated RCA cables to connect an amp to their system if they could just use 24 guage junk phonelines?

And I'm even more confused when you say that because the speakers are receiving high voltage you can use a smaller wire. Pretty sure that's the exact *opposite* - phone cables are intended for low voltage, low power applications.

I am assuming when you say "signal" you are referring to the audio signal, and not something else. Did you mean something else?
 

jfortier777

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Se7enLC said:
Well, the amp doesn't care, it just amplifies what it gets - but the cable itself will have some losses and noise, so the signal that the amp gets will be already noisy, and thus noisier once it is amplified.

All cables have those same issues. I cant say with certainty but I believe the high level inputs go through a series of filters and reductions before actually being amplified. The amplifier manufacturers know these things and design the amp for as good as possible performance with the limited connectivity.

Se7enLC said:
To put it another way, why would anybody pay for expensive gold-plated RCA cables to connect an amp to their system if they could just use 24 guage junk phonelines?

Because points of connection are the main place that signal quality is lost, it makes sense to coat it with the best material you can. Also the connections on the phone line are probably also plated at the terminals.


Se7enLC said:
And I'm even more confused when you say that because the speakers are receiving high voltage you can use a smaller wire. Pretty sure that's the exact *opposite* - phone cables are intended for low voltage, low power applications.

You are mistaken. An average phone line in a house runs at 48V DC. Considering that everything else in your vehicle is running at 12V I think the term high voltage could be used. (though really high voltage is like 600V+, that means that the 110 wall socket in your house is low voltage too, so be sure not to mix taht up and consider things that are low voltage to be weak.)

The other part of that question you have mixed up is voltage vs wire size.
Voltage is not the reason we have wires in different gauges. Current is the factor that determines this.
I dont want to type out a electronics 101 course here so heres a very brief explanation.

Low current - small wire

High current - large wire

High voltage - low current

Low voltage - high current

It is because of these rules that things like tasers can exist. If what you were thinking was correct than a pocket size taser with 50,000 volts would have cables bigger than your arms attached to it. So because speakers in your car run at higher voltage than the normal RCA signal wires, the tapped wires for the input do not need to be nearly as large.

Se7enLC said:
I am assuming when you say "signal" you are referring to the audio signal, and not something else. Did you mean something else?

nope, signal is exactly what I mean.
 

Se7enLC

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jfortier777 said:
All cables have those same issues. I cant say with certainty but I believe the high level inputs go through a series of filters and reductions before actually being amplified. The amplifier manufacturers know these things and design the amp for as good as possible performance with the limited connectivity.

But why have that limited connectivity? That's like when somebody spends $2000 on a car stereo and then pumps their iPod in through a staticy FM transmitter. Just because it works doesn't mean it's ideal. Why would anybody intentionally use a less capable cable when decent audio cables are cheap enough? I think even the factory speaker wiring is at least 18 gauge.

Because points of connection are the main place that signal quality is lost, it makes sense to coat it with the best material you can. Also the connections on the phone line are probably also plated at the terminals.

Ok, so if the point of connection is the issue, why would you go from a coaxial connector with a ground-shield to a modular connector like on a phone cord? Or is it going to be using a different connector? If it's going to be using a different connector, why not just use a cable that has the right connector to begin with? I'm not doubting that a phone cable would technically work, you could probably twist some alumnimum foil up and make it work, I'm just saying that a modular phone cable is not the right cable for the job, and you'd get better quality by using the right cable. And if we assume that the connection is as good between the two, there's an awful lot of transmisison line theory that says the cable used makes a difference (coax or twinax vs twisted pair)

You are mistaken. An average phone line in a house runs at 48V DC. Considering that everything else in your vehicle is running at 12V I think the term high voltage could be used. (though really high voltage is like 600V+, that means that the 110 wall socket in your house is low voltage too, so be sure not to mix taht up and consider things that are low voltage to be weak.)

48V, yes, but very low power. I said low-voltage low-power to mean both current and voltage.

The other part of that question you have mixed up is voltage vs wire size.
Voltage is not the reason we have wires in different gauges. Current is the factor that determines this. I dont want to type out a electronics 101 course here so heres a very brief explanation.

No need for EE 101, I'm an electrical engineer. I was saying that high-voltage does not mean smaller cable, that's only true when you assume that you have the same power (V=IR). Just because you have a higher voltage in this case doesn't mean you have lower current - in fact, it's actually MORE current than you would have in a pre-amp output.

It is because of these rules that things like tasers can exist. If what you were thinking was correct than a pocket size taser with 50,000 volts would have cables bigger than your arms attached to it. So because speakers in your car run at higher voltage than the normal RCA signal wires, the tapped wires for the input do not need to be nearly as large.

I didn't say that large voltage means large wire, I was just disagreeing with what you said about a high voltage allowing for a smaller wire. (which is why I specified low-power in addition to low-voltage). If you have a specified amount of power, then yes, when you lower the voltage, you increase the current and when you raise the voltage you decrease the current, but just because the voltage is higher does not mean that the power is constant.

And No No No, the reason the RCA wires are a lower voltage is because there is LESS power there. Actually, almost NO power compared to the speaker outputs. The pre-amp output is intentionally unamplified and has a lot less power than the (amplified) speaker outs.

Another reason to not use a phone cable for carrying audio like that is loss - a thinner cable will have a higher resistance and more loss. You may think that it shouldn't matter since you are going to amplify anyway, but loss is never linear, so you are losing some quality by using a thin little wire instead of something more substantial.
 

jfortier777

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We are WAY WAY off topic so lets move on past this unnecessary debate and I'll post this deffinition here that should end the debate anyway.


Speaker Level Inputs (AKA High level inputs) :
For source units that do not have pre-amp level RCA outputs this feature may be used to take the signal from the speaker leads of the source unit. The signal will not be as clean as a pre-amp level output but will be adequate for most factory upgrade applications.


This deffinition is universal and anywhere you look it up it should be 98% identical.
 
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