Need new front springs...

[Geof3]

I have no customizing perspective, only a budgeting one. :whip:

The issue is no longer the springs which, in and of themselves, I'm happy with.

Plus, I already have the suspension system purchased and for $200 less than you mentioned. Ok, $196 less after hockey pucks. :gr_grin:

When referring to the "one size fits all" are you referring to the OME setup? Because that's what it seems like here, 927/948 size for everyone. :shrug:


What I'm not happy with is the sudden realization that this $300 investment is blossoming into a $1300 one. I don't count the basic cost of new suspension or new tires, those I will need eventually anyways. I'm thinking long range here, but I was not aware until today that a set of normal looking sized tires would cost an additional set of gears also.

So I seem to have 4 options, listed in order of likelihood at this point.
1. Live with tiny wheel syndrome.
2. Risk Moog springs.
3. Choose lower rated OME springs.
4. Budget re-gear when new tires are due.

I don't like any of these options and thus am seeking assistance.

I'm imagining this:

As far as the one size fits all... definitely not. The 927-948 OME is recommended primarily that to get maximum lift and spring rate, whcih maximizes the potential of the jeep and allows for lot's of extras like bumpers, skid plates etc. You can go with whatever combo you wish. Also, keep in mind the softer the spring, the lower the lift. So going full "soft" still nets a better suspension than stock (way better) but with less lift. You can go medium front HD rear... All sorts of options. With moog or other stock type springs... you get ONE soft, gooey spring, matched with whatever shocks. Not a good deal IMO.

Regarding tires, a 2.5 lift (actually 1 inch over new stock for me give or take) I am running "stock" 235/70/16's...

Don't think they look "tiny" at all...

 

[ozone000]

That looks reasonable, for sure. What are your actual fender heights? 20 inches? Edit: Nevermind, I found them in your thread!

I don't disagree with you regarding the available combinations, but you can't deny that the 927/948 combo is recommended exclusively, without regard for application, and with little explanation other than "because I know more than you and I'm telling you so"; just look at the rest of this thread. Even though I went with the recommendation...I have serious doubts whether it is the right recommendation for me. Thing is, I'll NEVER know if I was wrong. My entire decision is based on the fact that a small handful of people decided that the combo you have was wrong for them. I'm no doubt suffering from EXTREME CONFIRMATION BIAS. I'm trying to learn from others' mistakes. It's not that easy when people refuse to say why they feel it is a mistake, just say that it was. A few people change from MD to HD. No one changes from HD to MD. So I go HD. Not the strongest argument for HD though. Just being a lemming, really. Everyone else is jumping off this cliff, I may as well see what's down there that's so special.

I do disagree with you about the Moog springs. Not that I think you are wrong, necessarily, but that you can't know if you are right or wrong. Moog doesn't give their spring rates for the front. No one has measured their spring rates. The one spring rate they give is for the rear and in-between the 947 and 948. I'm tempted to go for their CRD front coil with the 190# rear but I don't want to be a guinea pig. 14 years of Liberties and no one has ventured down their own road. I don't have the patience, time, or funds to go there myself.

Ok, maybe I have the time. All this time spent asking questions that don't get read anyways I could have swapped 3 suspensions by now.

 

[tommudd]

That looks reasonable, for sure. What are your actual fender heights? 20 inches?

I don't disagree with you regarding the available combinations, but you can't deny that the 927/948 combo is recommended exclusively, without regard for application, and with little explanation other than "because I know more than you and I'm telling you so"; just look at the rest of this thread. Even though I went with the recommendation...I have serious doubts whether it is the right recommendation for me. Thing is, I'll NEVER know if I was wrong. My entire decision is based on the fact that a small handful of people decided that the combo you have was wrong for them. I'm no doubt suffering from EXTREME CONFIRMATION BIAS. I'm trying to learn from others' mistakes. It's not that easy when people refuse to say why they feel it is a mistake, just say that it was. A few people change from MD to HD. No one changes from HD to MD. So I go HD. Not the strongest argument for HD though. Just being a lemming, really. Everyone else is jumping off this cliff, I may as well see what's down there that's so special.

I do disagree with you about the Moog springs. Not that I think you are wrong, necessarily, but that you can't know if you are right or wrong. Moog doesn't give their spring rates for the front. No one has measured their spring rates. The one spring rate they give is for the rear and in-between the 947 and 948. I'm tempted to go for their CRD front coil with the 190# rear but I don't want to be a guinea pig. 14 years of Liberties and no one has ventured down their own road. I don't have the patience, time, or funds to go there myself.

Ok, maybe I have the time. All this time spent asking questions that don't get read anyways I could have swapped 3 suspensions by now.

OK just say my name and be done:shrug::icon_lol::gr_grin::Bye:
As far as the spring rates goes etc, its what works best from literally 1000s of them being installed. If you want a very soft ride then go with the 925s which are rated at 50 lbs more than stock, ride will be OK, better yet is the 926s that are 75 lbs over stock, again an alright ride and handling but the real difference is when you go to the 927s. For what its worth from lots of discussions etc over the years a perfect front spring rate would actually be about 450 lb for the front and 250 for the rear, but those would have to be custom made for you.
LOTS and LOTS of people have ventured down their own road, but the problem is there are not many roads to go down. No other springs work so we are stuck using OME for example!
If you would start reading over on LOST, there was tons of testing going on back in 02-03 by the very founders of LOSTKJs which became LOSTJEEPs. One of the founding members is who sells the Frankenlift which came out of all of that testing. They are AllJs and own a Jeep shop in Cali.
I have tried other setups, just like the founding members of LOST did, we've tested and tried things that either worked and we incorporated them or took whatever it was off after 20 miles.
So to say no one has ever ventured out on their own is a huge misconception to what a lot of us ( many of us ) have done over the years.
If something works and works well then why argue the point over and over again? I just don't understand.
As far as what parts, I've had 927s/ 925s ( as a test for ARB/OME over 10 years ago ) 790s and a couple of different coilover setups on my 04. Each setup went through various heights from 2.5 to over 4.5 inches.
I know the LOST founding member's tried a lot of setups, various spring rates, shocks, additions, etc over along period of time and ******** testing and their final out come was to use the 927/ 948 combo.
So its not just one person saying something, or a few, its a lot of folks over the last 14 years testing/ trying/ rebuilding/ tweaking to get the best setup there is and recommend it.
Its OK to disagree, its a free world and I never did learn how to lead a horse to water and force it to drink.
I just want to see what you finally come up with, amaze us all , please go down that road!!:icon_lol:

 

[ozone000]

Tom...you'd put a 450#/250# on grandma's church-mobile? That's the perfect set-up for everyone? I don't know if you mean to make this sort of statement, but this is what you just told me. It's probably not what you meant (I dunno, maybe it is), but it is what you said and I cannot discern what you mean because you only appear see things from only one side. The best setup for an owner of a 4x4 shop in Big Bear may very well be the best setup for a 2x per year camper and otherwise rain buggy, but if you can't see why I'm skeptical of that then I don't know what to tell you.

I don't know why you think I'm trying to amaze you, I've stated repeatedly that I have no interest in being a guinea pig or even having much more than a safe vehicle that doesn't rub the stock tires. I ask these questions because I want to do it right the first time. I ask so many questions because the answers are not forthcoming. You seem to think that I think that I have all the answers. If I thought that I wouldn't have so many questions, would I? I have been wrong and I have admitted it. I don't know what more you expect from me but it appears that you expect blind obedience. Sorry, you're not getting that from me.

I shouldn't have said that no one has traveled their own road. There are a lot of obviously bad options for the KJ, and it's good that those roads have been traveled and posted with caution signs. Forgive my frustration with travelling down this road and seeing all these caution signs and wondering if maybe, just maybe, that road was closed by someone who had not considered my starting point.

Let me direct you to some work I've done for my motorcycle forum. Maybe you'll start to understand the method and precision with which I work and you'll have a bit more tolerance for my inquiries.

I go by ****** everywhere else on the internet. That random sequence of numbers and letters was taken here, though.:thumbsdown:

 

[Geof3]

I'm not sure why this needs to be such a difficult thing? Tom seems to be the resident pro at this stuff! Why argue? I'm not sure I get it? Buy and install what YOU think is best for YOUR application. Pretty simple. If it's moog (or whatever) and Monroe then so be it. Be happy with what you have and motor down the road. Or, go all in and buy the JBA fully customizable coil-over system from them. Then you can make it whatever you want right down to the click of a knob. BUT you still need to decide on spring rate.

In terms of tires, lift the thing a couple of inches, slap on some stock tires or go one up 245/65 and call it good. No re-gearing etc. when working in a tight budgetary scenario SOMETHING HAS GIVE FOR THE OTHER. Find middle ground that is workable and go.

 

[ozone000]

I'm not sure why this needs to be such a difficult thing? Tom seems to be the resident pro at this stuff! Why argue? I'm not sure I get it?

Here you are saying to defer to an expert. This is a reasonable position. You are incorrect in thinking I'm arguing. I admit I use the term "argument", but I mean that in a more technical sense as in "series of statements typically used to present reasons for accepting a conclusion" rather than what most people mean like "mom and dad are fighting". By my definition, you can't argue with someone who is not understanding your words. It's simply not possible.

Buy and install what YOU think is best for YOUR application.

Here you are saying to disregard said expert judgement and allow my in-expert judgement to prevail. This is typically not reasonable, but sometimes necessary. It is also in direct contradiction to your prior statement. That leaves me unsure as to what you are advising.

Pretty simple. If it's moog (or whatever) and Monroe then so be it. Be happy with what you have and motor down the road. Or, go all in and buy the JBA fully customizable coil-over system from them. Then you can make it whatever you want right down to the click of a knob.

You have described the extent of all possible scenarios that provide me with the required new suspension components, thank you. :happy175: The fully adjustable would be pretty sweet and is standard issue on my Triumph, but I have better uses for my money!

BUT you still need to decide on spring rate.

Contrary to Toms last post this is the one thing that has been decided. I prefer to feel the road and have no problem with the 927/948 spring rates. The spring rate was the first thing I decided, even before the Bilsteins, though I had to research the reasons myself, in 2 ten year old posts, using google, over the course of two days. Adam is right though, if I could get those rates in those springs without the lift, I'd be a pretty happy camper right now. Understanding this is essential to understanding why this thread has gone on for so long. I don't care, at all, whether I have a lift or not and that seems difficult to work into the existing framework.

In terms of tires, lift the thing a couple of inches, slap on some stock tires or go one up 245/65 and call it good. No re-gearing etc. when working in a tight budgetary scenario SOMETHING HAS GIVE FOR THE OTHER. Find middle ground that is workable and go.

I'm fine with the tires now. Once again, I had to search on my own for information., but not too far this time! Fortunately it was only a few days ago tommudd posted a bunch of pics for someone who had the exact same question I had. See here:http://www.jeepkj.com/forum/f196/photos-lifted-stock-tires-59851/. Plus you just posted that picture of yours. I'm no longer concerned with keeping the 29' tires. So regarding my last post, it looks like option 1, deal with the small tires, isn't as bad as I thought. Which is good, because I absolutely refuse to re-gear. That's a barrier which indicates to me that I'm straying from my life goals. I don't invest into a depreciating asset class except to defray opportunity costs, meaning that if I the choice is to re-gear or buy a new truck, I'll re-gear, but I sure ain't gonna do it for some fat tires. Pounding the pinch welds is pushing my limits on vehicle modification/customization already. I'll replace the crankshaft no problem, but only if it's necessary. I do this crap for a living and try to keep it at work.

 

[Geof3]

Here you are saying to defer to an expert. This is a reasonable position. You are incorrect in thinking I'm arguing. I admit I use the term "argument", but I mean that in a more technical sense as in "series of statements typically used to present reasons for accepting a conclusion" rather than what most people mean like "mom and dad are fighting". By my definition, you can't argue with someone who is not understanding your words. It's simply not possible.


Here you are saying to disregard said expert judgement and allow my in-expert judgement to prevail. This is typically not reasonable, but sometimes necessary. It is also in direct contradiction to your prior statement. That leaves me unsure as to what you are advising.


You have described the extent of all possible scenarios that provide me with the required new suspension components, thank you. :happy175: The fully adjustable would be pretty sweet and is standard issue on my Triumph, but I have better uses for my money!


Contrary to Toms last post this is the one thing that has been decided. I prefer to feel the road and have no problem with the 927/948 spring rates. The spring rate was the first thing I decided, even before the Bilsteins, though I had to research the reasons myself, in 2 ten year old posts, using google, over the course of two days. Adam is right though, if I could get those rates in those springs without the lift, I'd be a pretty happy camper right now. Understanding this is essential to understanding why this thread has gone on for so long. I don't care, at all, whether I have a lift or not and that seems difficult to work into the existing framework.



I'm fine with the tires now. Once again, I had to search on my own for information., but not too far this time! Fortunately it was only a few days ago tommudd posted a bunch of pics for someone who had the exact same question I had. See here:http://www.jeepkj.com/forum/f196/photos-lifted-stock-tires-59851/. Plus you just posted that picture of yours. I'm no longer concerned with keeping the 29' tires. So regarding my last post, it looks like option 1, deal with the small tires, isn't as bad as I thought. Which is good, because I absolutely refuse to re-gear. That's a barrier which indicates to me that I'm straying from my life goals. I don't invest into a depreciating asset class except to defray opportunity costs, meaning that if I the choice is to re-gear or buy a new truck, I'll re-gear, but I sure ain't gonna do it for some fat tires. Pounding the pinch welds is pushing my limits on vehicle modification/customization already. I'll replace the crankshaft no problem, but only if it's necessary. I do this crap for a living and try to keep it at work.

You obviously are more concerned with talking about this than actually getting it done. It's been nearly three weeks of this banter and still no conclusion. Wow.

Regarding what I was saying, in a nut shell... you have done nothing but argue with Tom and others asking them to support their positions, which he has done MANY times. Then you state they are not reading, or getting your position... huh?

I am simply saying MAKE A DECISION. Whatever it may be. This is NOT THAT DIFFICULT, yet you are making it so. I appreciate the need for information, there is plenty and its need to be sifted through, some good, some not so much, most figured out from years of experience. Take it for what it is worth and make it happen.

 

[ozone000]

Huh? What do you mean no conclusion and no decision?

The springs and rear shocks are sitting right here purchased nearly two weeks ago. Front shocks are backordered otherwise they'd all be installed. Seems like a decision to me. That seriously makes me wonder if you've read this thread at all.:shrug:

And the tire decision (if you can call it that at this point since it appears my options are now down to 2 sizes :icon_lol won't come for quite some time when the current tires need to be replaced.

The latest question was regarding the necessity to regear. Twobobs explained very well. Tom, not so much, just went on a rant about me going YOLO. Thanks to twobobs post and some photos I looked up, that decision has been made too....which is stated in the quote you posted, so again, not sure what you're on about Geof3.

Still wondering about this "pinion reset" and how it relates to regearing and tire size, but I'm beginning to get scared of asking any questions. It seems my questions are heard as attacks. Not sure why.

So I'm off to read a bunch of disparate posts again.

 

[Adam Roby]

Just go ahead Adam, install the CRD coil on the left side since its always lower a bit anyways.
:happy175::happy175::happy175:

Tom, I know you were just kidding here, but would the CRD coil give you some lift?
Do you know for sure if the spring rate is higher than the gas model or just longer?

Let's say, someone accidentally ordered some Monroe quick struts for the CRD instead of the Gas model (Monroe just to rule out other factors), 1) could the CRD one actually fit and 2) could it potentially give a better ride due to having a higher rate spring?

I was just re-reading this thread to help me understand how the spring rates and lengths work, and your comment - albeit a joke - made me start wondering. Please share your experiences with this if anyone has tried.

 

[tommudd]

huh? What do you mean no conclusion and no decision?

The springs and rear shocks are sitting right here purchased nearly two weeks ago. Front shocks are backordered otherwise they'd all be installed. Seems like a decision to me. That seriously makes me wonder if you've read this thread at all.:shrug:

And the tire decision (if you can call it that at this point since it appears my options are now down to 2 sizes :icon_lol won't come for quite some time when the current tires need to be replaced.

The latest question was regarding the necessity to regear. Twobobs explained very well. Tom, not so much, just went on a rant about me going yolo. Thanks to twobobs post and some photos i looked up, that decision has been made too....which is stated in the quote you posted, so again, not sure what you're on about geof3.

Still wondering about this "pinion reset" and how it relates to regearing and tire size, but i'm beginning to get scared of asking any questions. It seems my questions are heard as attacks. Not sure why.

So i'm off to read a bunch of disparate posts again.

pinion reset= restting the trans to accept the tire size you installed so that it shifts properly

 

[tommudd]

Tom, I know you were just kidding here, but would the CRD coil give you some lift?
Do you know for sure if the spring rate is higher than the gas model or just longer?

Let's say, someone accidentally ordered some Monroe quick struts for the CRD instead of the Gas model (Monroe just to rule out other factors), 1) could the CRD one actually fit and 2) could it potentially give a better ride due to having a higher rate spring?

I was just re-reading this thread to help me understand how the spring rates and lengths work, and your comment - albeit a joke - made me start wondering. Please share your experiences with this if anyone has tried.

yOU WOULD GET SOME LIFT FROM THE crd QUICK STRUTSALSO SINCE THEY ARE RATED AT 410 LB THEN THEY ARE ACTUALLY HIGHER RATED THAN THE ome 927S

WHOOPS SORRY FOR CAPS, TYPING REPORT
now I'll be in trouble for yelling :happy175:

 

[Adam Roby]

yOU WOULD GET SOME LIFT FROM THE crd QUICK STRUTSALSO SINCE THEY ARE RATED AT 410 LB THEN THEY ARE ACTUALLY HIGHER RATED THAN THE ome 927S

WHOOPS SORRY FOR CAPS, TYPING REPORT
now I'll be in trouble for yelling :happy175:

STOP YELLING! Just kidding... :happy175:

So you're saying they'd probably be too stiff.
When I look at the specs, the CRD seems to be around 400 lbs more than the Gas model (10% maybe). Any idea why they would be so much higher rated?

 

[tommudd]

STOP YELLING! Just kidding... :happy175:

So you're saying they'd probably be too stiff.
When I look at the specs, the CRD seems to be around 400 lbs more than the Gas model (10% maybe). Any idea why they would be so much higher rated?

OME 927 is 400 lb
OME 790 ( CRD and gassers with bmpers/winches) are 500 lb
Stock are 310 lb gasser
Stock CRD 410 lb

 

[Adam Roby]

OME 927 is 400 lb
OME 790 ( CRD and gassers with bmpers/winches) are 500 lb
Stock are 310 lb gasser
Stock CRD 410 lb

Hmmm.. you're giving me ideas now.
I think I will go to the parts place this week and ask to see one of each side by side, stencil the bolt pattern etc to see if it would actually fit.

Sounds to me like if 310 is not enough, and 400 is better, the 410 must be even better still. Having the truck sit a bit lower should also help with handling.

There has to be SOMEONE that has tried this already... 14 years now?

 

[tommudd]

Hmmm.. you're giving me ideas now.
I think I will go to the parts place this week and ask to see one of each side by side, stencil the bolt pattern etc to see if it would actually fit.

Sounds to me like if 310 is not enough, and 400 is better, the 410 must be even better still. Having the truck sit a bit lower should also help with handling.

There has to be SOMEONE that has tried this already... 14 years now?

What stock CRD springs on a KJ ? Yes been done

 

[Adam Roby]

What stock CRD springs on a KJ ? Yes been done

Yeah, something like a Monroe quickstrut meant for the CRD but on a gasser, any posts here or elsewhere that someone has tried and has given their reviews? "Been done", but what were the results?

 

[scottg]

Yeah, something like a Monroe quickstrut meant for the CRD but on a gasser, any posts here or elsewhere that someone has tried and has given their reviews? "Been done", but what were the results?

Not sure if you checked, but according to Monroe's website, they do not offer a Quickstrut ment for the CRD. Only the gassers.

If you are finding otherwise, what are the part numbers? I know I check at work (Autozone) and they list Gabriel Ready Mounts, but they are selling the same part number for the CRD and the gasser options.

 

[Adam Roby]

Ha, good point.
I started just looking at coil strings, figured the conversation might take a turn depending on other factors like shocks or spacers etc, so I changed it to quick struts.

I never looked at actual part numbers.
Moog has a different part number for the coil spring in front but the same in back.
Mevotech and others show the exact same spring.

This went from curious to down right strange.

 

[Geof3]

Ha, good point.
I started just looking at coil strings, figured the conversation might take a turn depending on other factors like shocks or spacers etc, so I changed it to quick struts.

I never looked at actual part numbers.
Moog has a different part number for the coil spring in front but the same in back.
Mevotech and others show the exact same spring.

This went from curious to down right strange.

Ha! No doubt! And this is precisely why I went with the tried and true option. Sucked up the $$$, got a bit of lift (cool) and a great feeling KJ... there is a point where all the "options" can get out of hand. Then trying to find the zone that is in budget AND worthwhile...(banghead)(banghead)

 

[Adam Roby]

Yup... add to that everything being double price in Canada, and needing a garage to do the work, price just keeps adding up! If I were in the states, with fair pricing, and free shipping, and close to another member who could give a hand... then I wouldn't need to look for any options because the choice would have already been made and installed.