Need new front springs...

[ozone000]

...but the shocks are all fine. The front fenders currently sit at 17.75 inches and the rears at 19. My stock (235/65R17) tires are rubbing, camber adjustment is maxed out, and the steering is a bit twitchy.

I want good springs, but I want to hold off on the shocks until I actually need them. They work pretty well. Maybe they're new-ish. I know I could just get the Moog, but I may as well get a better option while I'm replacing them anyway.

I've read all the FAQ for lifting here and at LostJeeps, but some of the info seems a bit outdated especially regarding part numbers and not all the companies give all the specs, or at least not that I have found.

At what point in the OME line do I not need new struts/shocks to make space? If I understand correctly, it seems that the fronts will be fine but the rears will need new shocks if I get medium weight or above.

The same question for the Ironman springs, which are both shorter and stiffer. Are new shocks needed for those as well?

Does anyone know the free length and spring rate of the JBA springs? I couldn't find any listing. I'm used to motorcycle suspension where length is set and you can get spring rates in any reasonable span. How about compressed length and travel for the Ironman dampers?

If I find that I do need new dampers, then this question will still apply as most of the shocks/struts out there are OE size. I will obviously buy what I need but even if the current shocks wear quickly, it will likely be a year or two before they need to be replaced. This is a secondary vehicle that isn't driven much, maybe a few thousand miles a year.

Thanks in advance for helping to clear this up for me!

 

[tommudd]

...but the shocks are all fine. The front fenders currently sit at 17.75 inches and the rears at 19. My stock (235/65R17) tires are rubbing, camber adjustment is maxed out, and the steering is a bit twitchy.

I want good springs, but I want to hold off on the shocks until I actually need them. They work pretty well. Maybe they're new-ish. I know I could just get the Moog, but I may as well get a better option while I'm replacing them anyway.

I've read all the FAQ for lifting here and at LostJeeps, but some of the info seems a bit outdated especially regarding part numbers and not all the companies give all the specs, or at least not that I have found.

At what point in the OME line do I not need new struts/shocks to make space? If I understand correctly, it seems that the fronts will be fine but the rears will need new shocks if I get medium weight or above.

The same question for the Ironman springs, which are both shorter and stiffer. Are new shocks needed for those as well?

Does anyone know the free length and spring rate of the JBA springs? I couldn't find any listing. I'm used to motorcycle suspension where length is set and you can get spring rates in any reasonable span. How about compressed length and travel for the Ironman dampers?

If I find that I do need new dampers, then this question will still apply as most of the shocks/struts out there are OE size. I will obviously buy what I need but even if the current shocks wear quickly, it will likely be a year or two before they need to be replaced. This is a secondary vehicle that isn't driven much, maybe a few thousand miles a year.

Thanks in advance for helping to clear this up for me!

IF your springs are sitting that low yuo need both springs and shocks, replacing one or the other if a bandaid approach to doing a suspension upgrade, replace the springs with old shocks and you'll wear out the springs quicker. You have to replace the rears anyways if going to a lift like OME. You will need to compress the front springs etc to install new coils so while in there do it right and replace the shocks. If they have over 55-60,000 they are done for anyways.
Doesn't matter if you drive 10 miles a year or 100,000 you want to replace them all. Why keep used parts in the mix, not the way its done.
Difference in motorsickles and Jeeps, no need for spring length etc
If you want 2.5 inches of lift then OME 927 and 948 combo gives you that, want 3 inches of lift add a 1/4 inch top plate and an extra upper isolater on each side in the rear .
Done a lot of lofts here and no one has ever drove anyway upset, done right at forst and happy smiles from there on

 

[ozone000]

Ok. Lets say I don't necessarily care about lift, only better than OE springs if at all possible.

I go out and get the Bilstein 4600 series shocks/struts all the way around. What springs am I limited to? How about the Rancho RS5000 series?

I ask because you can get a whole set for the price of one ARB strut (almost), and those aren't cheap shocks. Don't necessarily care about the lift, it just seems you can't get high quality springs without 2.5 inches of lift.

 

[tommudd]

Ok. Lets say I don't necessarily care about lift, only better than OE springs if at all possible.

I go out and get the Bilstein 4600 series shocks/struts all the way around. What springs am I limited to? How about the Rancho RS5000 series?

I ask because you can get a whole set for the price of one ARB strut (almost), and those aren't cheap shocks. Don't necessarily care about the lift, it just seems you can't get high quality springs without 2.5 inches of lift.

If you don't want much lift go with the OME 926s, only about 1 -1.5 inches of lift
Rancho RS5000, not that good
With the Bilsteins mentioned you have just stock springs , if wanting to go that route then just get a full Monroe Sensatrac replacement, front springs/ shocks already to install, new rear springs and shocks and back at stock height

 

[Adam Roby]

...I don't necessarily care about lift, only better than OE springs if at all possible....

I am in pretty much the same boat, I want an improved ride, I don't much care of a lift... but everything they sell is for a lift at over $1000 not installed.

Might be worth doing the RockAuto approach, they have some pre-assembled struts with coils. They are OEM standard ride quality, but have to be better than a 10 year old suspension.

More Information for MONROE 171577L

 

[ozone000]

Yeah Adam, I saw your thread shortly after I started mine. I know a bit about suspension, but it's hard to get the numbers to do the math.

I just popped my head under the Jeep to look at the rear shock, thought maybe there was some indication of when it was installed. They feel great, no bounce at all even where they are really stressed.

Date of manufacture stamped right on the thing where I can see.

One month before the date of manufacture of the Jeep on the door.

Looks like I'm going to have to price a whole set. Wish there was something in between price wise of the Monroe/Moog for $305 and the $815/$835 JBA kits.

I've been putting together a sortable listing of all the dampers and springs that have numbers to see what matches up. I'll post it here or send it to you. Tommudd was right about needing to replace the dampers at the same time, but so far I don't see any reason why I can fit a OME 9009 with a length of 319 mm into a Ironman spring but I can't fit a Monroe in there for 1/3 of the price but 33 more mm of length and only 4 mm more travel.

Not that I should, but sometimes you pay for quality and sometimes you just pay for lack of economy of scale, marketing, and Aussie salaries. I suspect there is a bit of a Veblen Good situation going on here.

If they were all matched sets, maybe, but you get the same OME strut with 3 different spring rates and lengths. I'm not buying it. The $170 damper can't be right for everyone.

 

[tommudd]

I am in pretty much the same boat, I want an improved ride, I don't much care of a lift... but everything they sell is for a lift at over $1000 not installed.

Might be worth doing the RockAuto approach, they have some pre-assembled struts with coils. They are OEM standard ride quality, but have to be better than a 10 year old suspension.

More Information for MONROE 171577L

1000?? Oh you mean with shipping??

 

[tommudd]

Yeah Adam, I saw your thread shortly after I started mine. I know a bit about suspension, but it's hard to get the numbers to do the math.

I just popped my head under the Jeep to look at the rear shock, thought maybe there was some indication of when it was installed. They feel great, no bounce at all even where they are really stressed.

Date of manufacture stamped right on the thing where I can see.

One month before the date of manufacture of the Jeep on the door.

Looks like I'm going to have to price a whole set. Wish there was something in between price wise of the Monroe/Moog for $305 and the $815/$835 JBA kits.

I've been putting together a sortable listing of all the dampers and springs that have numbers to see what matches up. I'll post it here or send it to you. Tommudd was right about needing to replace the dampers at the same time, but so far I don't see any reason why I can fit a OME 9009 with a length of 319 mm into a Ironman spring but I can't fit a Monroe in there for 1/3 of the price but 33 more mm of length and only 4 mm more travel.

Not that I should, but sometimes you pay for quality and sometimes you just pay for lack of economy of scale, marketing, and Aussie salaries. I suspect there is a bit of a Veblen Good situation going on here.

If they were all matched sets, maybe, but you get the same OME strut with 3 different spring rates and lengths. I'm not buying it. The $170 damper can't be right for everyone.

Monroe shocks are equal to a Yugo
OME is equal to a Caddy
Has nothing to do with where they are made or who made them.
Experience with the KJs are best OME and then Bilstein and Ironman tie
They are matched to the springs, noting to do with rates all about design
Not sure why you would want to go back to something thats no better and possibly worse than stock
It is all about upgrading for a better ride and handling

 

[tommudd]

I am in pretty much the same boat, I want an improved ride, I don't much care of a lift... but everything they sell is for a lift at over $1000 not installed.

Might be worth doing the RockAuto approach, they have some pre-assembled struts with coils. They are OEM standard ride quality, but have to be better than a 10 year old suspension.

More Information for MONROE 171577L

Improved ride will not be coming from Rockauto, thats just replacing worn out back to what it was new which was terrible at best.
I have a complete set here I took in on trade a while back, installed on the 03 for a week, Oh my , what a waste of my time, drove for 3 days and removed. The OME setup I had off of another KJ with over 75,000 miles rode much better than the new stock Monroes. ( of course someone wanted to buy them so they went away LOL)

 

[ozone000]

1. Has nothing to do with where they are made or who made them.
2. They are matched to the springs, noting to do with rates all about design
3. Not sure why you would want to go back to something thats no better and possibly worse than stock.
4. It is all about upgrading for a better ride and handling

1. This is clearly false based on simple macroeconomic principles. The OME and Ironman, both Australian made, I don't doubt are in fact superior. However, to say that the price would not come down if they were either closer to the US, larger companies, or using USD as currency is a bit of a stretch. I'm not even saying that it's not WORTH the extra money, just that I'm not willing to PAY it. My demand curve drops to 0 well before their prices.

2. This does not pass the smell test. One model of shock matched to the Liberty to go with 4 possible springs with 3 different rates and 4 different lengths for said Liberty does not matching make. And that's only for the front. I'm sure OME feels their particular valving is superior else they would change it, but it cannot possibly account for all variations in driver desires and behavior. Sorry.

3. I do not want Monroes. I was using that as an example of being confused why you said they won't fit. I don't see why you must get OME dampers with OME springs. OME or Ironman springs are pretty much the only option. Thus we are left with either the inferior $300 option or one 3 times that price. The more I investigate and write down all the spring rates and lengths and damper extension and compression lengths the less I believe this to be the case. I am not the expert though and could be convinced otherwise with evidence or explanation.

4. This is fundamentally false. There is more than one factor when making decisions of any sort, including this one. In fact, consider what would be reasonable if your statement were fully true. If better ride and handling were the only goal, completely customized, bespoke suspension would likely be the best answer and even then it would need to be interchangeable for varying conditions. This would be prohibitively expensive. I'm sure you don't actually mean this.

Adam: Attached in the pdf is the research I've done so far. I've yet to come to any conclusions. This forum is a real sticker for file size, huh?

 

[tommudd]

1. This is clearly false based on simple macroeconomic principles. The OME and Ironman, both Australian made, I don't doubt are in fact superior. However, to say that the price would not come down if they were either closer to the US, larger companies, or using USD as currency is a bit of a stretch. I'm not even saying that it's not WORTH the extra money, just that I'm not willing to PAY it. My demand curve drops to 0 well before their prices.

2. This does not pass the smell test. One model of shock matched to the Liberty to go with 4 possible springs with 3 different rates and 4 different lengths for said Liberty does not matching make. And that's only for the front. I'm sure OME feels their particular valving is superior else they would change it, but it cannot possibly account for all variations in driver desires and behavior. Sorry.

3. I do not want Monroes. I was using that as an example of being confused why you said they won't fit. I don't see why you must get OME dampers with OME springs. OME or Ironman springs are pretty much the only option. Thus we are left with either the inferior $300 option or one 3 times that price. The more I investigate and write down all the spring rates and lengths and damper extension and compression lengths the less I believe this to be the case. I am not the expert though and could be convinced otherwise with evidence or explanation.

4. This is fundamentally false. There is more than one factor when making decisions of any sort, including this one. In fact, consider what would be reasonable if your statement were fully true. If better ride and handling were the only goal, completely customized, bespoke suspension would likely be the best answer and even then it would need to be interchangeable for varying conditions. This would be prohibitively expensive. I'm sure you don't actually mean this.

Adam: Attached in the pdf is the research I've done so far. I've yet to come to any conclusions. This forum is a real sticker for file size, huh?

Well believe what you will, I know from doing suspension work from back in the 1970s on up through to present
I also have installed a lot of OME/ Ironman / OME-Bilstein mix etc setups on KJs and know what they ride and handle like afterwards . Have also installed others like BDS, Rustys, Frankenlifts etc. So have a pretty good idea of what works and what doesn't .
Rancho used to make an excellent line of shocks in their RSX, but discontinued it a few years back, their RS line is not any better than the low dollar Monroes really .
Would be interesting to sit down over a large glass of water and fully discuss suspension systems and how different setups work
Have you looked at the fully adjustable coilover lifts from JBA? Adjust each shocks as far as compression and rebound, completely tuneable , rides great, should try it


Bure aghali..............Swahili term,.......cheap is expensive

Have a great afternoon

 

[tommudd]

Adam: Attached in the pdf is the research I've done so far. I've yet to come to any conclusions. This forum is a real sticker for file size, huh?

By the way , this information is already on here and LOSTJEEPs
Plus I have a whole file folder of other brands etc as well
length when it comes to these springs means nothing really ( in a way ), since it is the rate that gives lift.
For example Ironman HDs has more coils , but doesn't give as much lift as the OME 927s ( 2.25 -vs- 2.5 inches

But again just trying to help as I see so many wasting money on lifts/ suspension systems picking bad parts only to have to redo in a few months. Using quality springs and cheap shocks wears the springs out faster etc

Have fun, I'm done
Rev. Mudd is out of the building

 

[Adam Roby]

Hey ozone000,

Thanks for the file, I appreciate the research!

I am also looking for a middle ground here, and am not opposed to the full OME upgrade just I am not ready to shell out all that money and need a "quick fix" so to speak to get me through the next season or three. In my case, USD to CAN plus the shipping rates makes it almost impossible to do any swap without spending $1000 or more. Again, maybe in a year for now I could justify that expense, so I don't want to spend too much now if it will be replaced. Even if I were to buy OEM quality shocks, they have to be better than 10 year old OEM shocks... don't really get why I could not just swap shocks without swapping coils, the dealership does it all the time... the manufacturer must have accounted for the springs sagging over time... I dunno, seems a bit one sided this debate.

I completely understand that people have tried other options and maybe OME is the best option, but it can't be the only option. Maybe I will be proven wrong and if I am, then I will post my findings here and eat my humble pie.

 

[tommudd]

Hey ozone000,

Thanks for the file, I appreciate the research!

I am also looking for a middle ground here, and am not opposed to the full OME upgrade just I am not ready to shell out all that money and need a "quick fix" so to speak to get me through the next season or three. In my case, USD to CAN plus the shipping rates makes it almost impossible to do any swap without spending $1000 or more. Again, maybe in a year for now I could justify that expense, so I don't want to spend too much now if it will be replaced. Even if I were to buy OEM quality shocks, they have to be better than 10 year old OEM shocks... don't really get why I could not just swap shocks without swapping coils, the dealership does it all the time... the manufacturer must have accounted for the springs sagging over time... I dunno, seems a bit one sided this debate.

I completely understand that people have tried other options and maybe OME is the best option, but it can't be the only option. Maybe I will be proven wrong and if I am, then I will post my findings here and eat my humble pie.

As stated all that nfo is here reagrding the springs / shocks
As far as just replacing the shocks, your springs are worn out as well
replacing the shocks by themselves is going to cause them to wear out more quickly due to fact they will be working harder to maintain the ride. Weak springs bounce more, so more bounce to try and control
Common sense type things here.
Same as replacing just brake pads with worn out rotors, band aid repair at best. read up on suspension sites on how a suspension works and how long normal springs and shocks work.
And no the manufacturer does not take into consideration sag, they know that suspensions need replacing .
You can talk around me all you want, in the end again trying to help you and others not throw good money away .
OME can be bought in Canada as well at some locations.

 

[Adam Roby]

...
You can talk around me all you want, in the end again trying to help you...
OME can be bought in Canada as well at some locations.

Hi Tom,

I am in no way trying to offend you or dispute what you are saying. I admittedly know nothing about suspensions. I wish I had the cash on hand to do it the right way right away, but unfortunately I don't so I am looking for a shortcut... them's the breaks. I will no doubt regret any bandaid fix I do, so might as well be a cheaper bandaid fix if possible.

I will need to find a local distributor once I am ready for the real purchase. We get ***** financially when ordering from the states. I have property in NY state, I can technically ship there for free most of the time but pay hundreds of dollars to ship home (1 hour further). Unless I can find a garage in the states to do the install... but our Canadian dollar is worth nothing currently.

 

[ozone000]

Yeah. I feel like I have a simple, technical question but I'm getting bombarded with unrelated, if true, information. Maybe I can be more clear.

What springs can I put in the Bilstein 4600 series? Is it only Moog or can I put other ones in as well? If so, which ones? If the answer is Moog only, so be it. Gives me more money to get good dampers.

The question can then be asked for other manufacturers' OE replacement shocks, but apparently we need to start small.

Adam: Have you measured your fender height? I re-read your post and if you are just trying to get rid of the wobbles a $300 OE replacement may be the band-aid you need. It doesn't sound like there's an option to piece together the lift that you think you may want later. It's not like you can add one spring at a time! My problem is different. I could spend the money on the lift, I just don't want to. I don't need a suspension rated for the Australian Outback here on the mean highways of Southern California. I went on a "trail" last weekend that I could have taken in my 325i. I'm not spending $800 on something I don't need or even want.

Edit: Found the answer here: http://www.jeepkj.com/forum/f203/bilstein-ome-lift-suggestion-tommudd-58032/
Didn't find anything for other setups though, yet!!

 

[Adam Roby]

I just did a quick check, from the ground to the fender:

Back - 32 1/4"
Front - 31 3/4"

What should I be at?

Based on the last measurements, I assume you are supposed to measure at the center of the hub.
In that case, I am at:

Back - 19 1/2
Front - 18 3/4

I know, at first there was a 1/2" difference and now 3/4" difference.
1) Its hard to find the perfect center
2) Its raining outside so I went quick
3) Its night time so I can barely see

 

[tommudd]

Hi Tom,

I am in no way trying to offend you or dispute what you are saying. I admittedly know nothing about suspensions. I wish I had the cash on hand to do it the right way right away, but unfortunately I don't so I am looking for a shortcut... them's the breaks. I will no doubt regret any bandaid fix I do, so might as well be a cheaper bandaid fix if possible.

I will need to find a local distributor once I am ready for the real purchase. We get ***** financially when ordering from the states. I have property in NY state, I can technically ship there for free most of the time but pay hundreds of dollars to ship home (1 hour further). Unless I can find a garage in the states to do the install... but our Canadian dollar is worth nothing currently.

Save up, my first lift on the 04 took me over 2 months of buying rear springs one pay, rear shocks next, etc

 

[tommudd]

I just did a quick check, from the ground to the fender:

Back - 32 1/4"
Front - 31 3/4"

What should I be at?

Based on the last measurements, I assume you are supposed to measure at the center of the hub.
In that case, I am at:

Back - 19 1/2
Front - 18 3/4

I know, at first there was a 1/2" difference and now 3/4" difference.
1) Its hard to find the perfect center
2) Its raining outside so I went quick
3) Its night time so I can barely see

Yes measure center of hub, center cap whatever to bottom of the flare
measuring from ground up takes in way too many variables

 

[tommudd]

Yeah. I feel like I have a simple, technical question but I'm getting bombarded with unrelated, if true, information. Maybe I can be more clear.

What springs can I put in the Bilstein 4600 series? Is it only Moog or can I put other ones in as well? If so, which ones? If the answer is Moog only, so be it. Gives me more money to get good dampers.

The question can then be asked for other manufacturers' OE replacement shocks, but apparently we need to start small.

Adam: Have you measured your fender height? I re-read your post and if you are just trying to get rid of the wobbles a $300 OE replacement may be the band-aid you need. It doesn't sound like there's an option to piece together the lift that you think you may want later. It's not like you can add one spring at a time! My problem is different. I could spend the money on the lift, I just don't want to. I don't need a suspension rated for the Australian Outback here on the mean highways of Southern California. I went on a "trail" last weekend that I could have taken in my 325i. I'm not spending $800 on something I don't need or even want.

Edit: Found the answer here: http://www.jeepkj.com/forum/f203/bilstein-ome-lift-suggestion-tommudd-58032/
Didn't find anything for other setups though, yet!!

There are many ways to go, but Bilstein, OME or Ironman are the best shocks to use and hold up well over time
You would be so surprised at how much better your KJ would ride and handle with good springs and shocks. YES you do need them if you like that. I bought my 04 new, after the first 1000 miles I knew I had to do something with the crappy suspension, so I started saving, buying parts and at 20,000 miles replaced the weak junk parts and man what a huge difference all around, over 200,000 lifted miles later I never regretted the money i spent on that first lift or any there after.
My 03 that I bought last fall with 81,000 miles on it had sagged over 1.5 inches ( one owner / garage kept and babied) So the lift on it cost almost 1/2 as much as what I paid for the KJ. Crazy ? Not at all with the ride I get on and off road . I bought it with things I sold that I had had for over 45 years. But I knew what I wanted out of this ride and went for it.
Its all in what you think you need, some don;t care how there vehicle rides or handles, I do , very OCD actually:happy175: