3.7 oil crud probelm

[Conundrum2006]

Yeah the cats are part of the exhaust assembly, nothing I see to disconnect them so they could come out with the motor. I'd rather pull them with the motor but the way Jeep built the commander (and probably everything else of the same years) they assemble the engine transmission on subframes then lift them up to the body.

Everything is very difficult to get at, to get the intake off the drivers side engine mount bolt has to be pulled and the engine lowered on that side, if the passengers side were lowered it'd crush transmission lines.

I think the engine is ready to pull, all the bolts are out, passengers manifold is unbolted from the engine, drivers manifold is unbolted at the pipe, and harness is disconnected.I think it is ready but...

 

[Conundrum2006]

Ok they are called Pipe To Manifold Nuts or Hex Flange Lock Nuts (Mopar # 6503231), the one's i pulled off were factory to the vehicle, and only 2005-10 in the grand cherokee & commander.

The Bolts are mopar # 6507746AA

The Liberty part is Converter and Pipe lock Nut 2005-2012 mopar #6508305AA

I kind of like the newer liberty design since the OEM Commander already failed me, but if I had been using impact gun they might have been fine. When it's put together I want to be able to get it apart easier for the next job whatever that is.

 

[Conundrum2006]

Part one of the autopsy.
Pulled the old motor today, got the new one in with a couple of bolts in the bellhousing and engine mounts secured, so a lot of buttoning up left to do.

Pulled the pan on the old engine before putting it in the garage.
A ton of gunk in the pan along with a part of the timing chain guide rail. From the design of the the drain you can see why the crud would never drain out.

Pick up screen was good and clogged. I wonder if it was just the crud clogging up the oil filters or the pickup screening causing the oil pressure to drop after higher RPM. Either way it was really bad.

Pan gasket underside was thick with gunk.

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Pickup screen was clogged.

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Crud at the bottom of the pan. and a piece of guide rail

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Oddly no other sign of contaminates like I thought I'd find.

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[Conundrum2006]

Whatever the other weird contaminants that kept finding their way to the drain pan were they were not inside the oil pan. Probably dirt from the splash shield or elsewhere on the motor. Also the Oil pan has some bad rust spots that may have been flaking adding to the confusion. Never seen a oil pan rust like this.

The rest of the bottom end of the motor looks pretty good. Top end has some large thumb sized clumps of crud braking off very easily, I'm sure that helped add to the ongoing crud problem.

The question left is what caused this. My gut wants to say pure neglect. However I need to pull the heads and see if the gaskets were blown.

 

[ltd02]

Yikes! :shakehead:

That would be some serious neglect if nothing else was wrong. Was the piece of guide rail missing from the current guides or was that from an older issue? I know the design of the timing chain area lets stuff fall down into the pan and it would be tough to retrieve. Curious about the HGs too, like if they contributed to the crud. Be interesting to see if they are stock. Wonder if someone blew one and just slapped some new ones on without proper prep or cleanup. Keep us posted.

 

[LibertyTC]

Ya once the heads are off, would like to see some photos of gaskets and piston/cylinder walls.
That is some amazing gunk build up ! Need my paint scraper? :icon_lol:
After viewing inside that pan Wow1.gif sure makes me want to change the oil frequently!
Glad you have the new engine in, hope that all goes well too! :waytogo:

 

[CactusJacked]

Yikes is right. Years of neglect; extended oil change intervals would cause that sludge. Some if not most/all of the crud in the pan is likely what came raining down from above during your flush attempts. And yep, the clogged oil pump certainly was the reason for your higher rpm low oil pressure (starving) issue.

 

[jeepguy4276]

Holly crud!!! That's serious crud. I think I'll go change my oil.

 

[Conundrum2006]

Holly crud!!! That's serious crud. I think I'll go change my oil.

No kidding! The natural thought upon such a sight is "when was the last time I changed my oil?" It'd be a great PSA. This is your engine, this is you engine when you're too lazy or cheap to get the oil changed.

Of course it could still be a BHG that caused it. We'll know soon enough. I also was not sure how much moisture evaporation was supposed to be in the 3.7. I saw it with the oil cap removed until it got to operating temp, may have seen signs but not known it.

Oh the opposite side of the pan gasket was just some tarnishing no build of gunk.


My guess is the timing guide fell in the pan some time ago. It does not look like the timing cover ever came off the engine. I had a ford 5.4 engine where every one of the timing guides made of plastic (naturally :emotions34 fell to pieces, a good number fell into the oil pan. Of course both engines (5.4 and 3.7) are very sensitive to oil flow and timing tension.

Seeing the copious amount of crud in motor made me glad to have another engine to put in. Either do to neglect or a BHG, I still think the flush option could have worked just this motor had too much to remove to be healthy again without dropping the pan.

Seriously glad to have had Plan B (the engine swap) ready to go and I have got to thank everyone here for making that a possibility. With a newer Jeep I had no idea what was needed, the experts here generously gave of their knowledge and experience.

Not done yet but it's getting there. :favorites13:

 

[Conundrum2006]

Need to swap the Camshaft Sensor.
the 2006 part number 56041584AF
fits jeeps with 3.7, 4.7, 5.7
2003-07 Jeep Liberty
2006-07 Jeep Commander

Crankshaft sensor is the same.

 

[LibertyTC]

No kidding! The natural thought upon such a sight is "when was the last time I changed my oil?" It'd be a great PSA. This is your engine, this is you engine when you're too lazy or cheap to get the oil changed.:

Ya this is when you wish the previous owner could be sitting on the couch & then...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9RttyUQiws

 

[Hockeygoon]

Yikes is right. Years of neglect; extended oil change intervals would cause that sludge. Some if not most/all of the crud in the pan is likely what came raining down from above during your flush attempts. And yep, the clogged oil pump certainly was the reason for your higher rpm low oil pressure (starving) issue.

You could get one to look like that with a seeping head gasket and 5000 mile oil changes in a year of driving.

Pictures like that show how futile an "engine flush" is once sludge has built up.


What is "funny" is that now that it is somewhat apart after checking the head gaskets a shop would clean that mess up and bolt it back together and probably get another 50K out of that engine. Well - maybe not that engine - but a 3.9 would probably handle it with no problem.

 

[Conundrum2006]

View My Video

Video - TinyPic - Free Image Hosting, Photo Sharing & Video Hosting

It is finished and it's running!!!

Burping the cooling system is a pain. Still a lot of air trapped somewhere. Not sure what the procedure is... going to look it up now.

I'll be back later with some more details.

 

[Conundrum2006]

Ya this is when you wish the previous owner could be sitting on the couch & then...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9RttyUQiws

I do like the idea of that

You could get one to look like that with a seeping head gasket and 5000 mile oil changes in a year of driving.

Pictures like that show how futile an "engine flush" is once sludge has built up.


What is "funny" is that now that it is somewhat apart after checking the head gaskets a shop would clean that mess up and bolt it back together and probably get another 50K out of that engine. Well - maybe not that engine - but a 3.9 would probably handle it with no problem.

Flushing alone couldn't save this motor, maybe if I did something drastic and let it sit long enough to dissolve all the crud, days, it might have saved the trouble of replacing it. However I do believe that with the pan and pickup screen clean, and lets say a quick scrubbing of the thick crud ready to drop off on cylinder heads it would it think the oil recommendations would work to fully clean it.
But it is what it is. I'm glad to have the new motor in and running. I'll get to fully taking the old motor apart later. Wouldn't be shocked to have a seeping headgasket.



First starts are always fun. There is the relief of hearing the motor start and run. Then the fun of family thinking the car is on fire because of the wd40 sprayed on and around exhaust to get the bolts free. :ROFLJest:

The video I posted is the first run one after the wd40 burned off. And now its down to burping the system which has become frustrating.

 

[Conundrum2006]

Ok some good stuff for anyone else looking at this swap.
It looks like the cylinder heads has two sets of tapped holes for the steering pump, it's the same for the 2006 cylinder head and 2012.

Oh, one interesting thing is the 2006 had the place for the egr valve, just not drilled though, the hole goes all the way to the exhaust port, the non egr exhaust manifold does not even cover the hole, which is fine but I was surprised they (A.) had it ported in the first place and (B.) left it exposed. Guess it doesn't matter because I did the same thing with the 2012 motor.
BTW as we talked about EGR or Non EGR replacement doesn't matter if your old motor was NON EGR and you use the original manifold. The original manifold should make it irrelevant because the port will not be connected by the exhaust manifold.

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One nice thing is the 2012 motor has a different PCV system, better in my opinion although I liked the old wide mouthed oil filler neck.

Following one of the diagrams I copied the way it routed the PCV pipes, it's also just swapping the rout from the PCV on the oil filler to intake and substituting the new location at the back of the motor.

In this picture the PCV valve in the back of the motor drivers side cylinder head. It is routed directly from the PCV to the intake, I used the grommet it came with a piece of straight pipe cut to size and small connecting hose from the original motors PCV.

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The next part is the PCV hose that goes from the back of the passenger side cylinder head to the air box this was simple because the original set up had two lines from the back of both heads meeting at the front then connecting to the airbox. Simply removed the line going to the driver's side and plugged it at the junction. May find a better way to do this later but there shouldn't be anything wrong with this solution.

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:happy160:

 

[mx3_ryder]

I swapped oil filler necks and used original pcv and routing of hoses. You can swap over your old filler neck to keep everything original. You will need to swap over the pcv valves that screw into the heads though to make this happen.

 

[Conundrum2006]

Some more goodies for any who follow this swap.

Used the 2012 fuel rail and injectors. No issues with them or using the 2012 MAP sensor, accidentally broke the original one getting the plug lose.
Swapped over the original temp sending and got a new Cam sensor for the year Jeep I was working on. The 2012 Crankshaft sensor was the same.

Timing cover was the same. Kept the crank pulley since it was the same as well.
Really it's a straight forward swap especially for the 2005 up jeeps.

Finally got to burped enough to drive it yesterday. Not a night and day difference but it is diffidently snappier feeling and more responsive. Idles better too, over all sounds better too.

Oh, about the catalytic converter, never did replace it, did the test as described to see if it had any rattle. It didn't so I left it. Also replacements cost $300 to $400. Anyway the exhaust like rattle sound is no longer present at any operating temperature.
Did replaced the water pump and alternator while I was at it so maybe the bearings of one of them, the old motor, or something else somehow.

It is really a brilliant swap. Can't thank you all enough for the advice I got here.

 

[Conundrum2006]

I swapped oil filler necks and used original pcv and routing of hoses. You can swap over your old filler neck to keep everything original. You will need to swap over the pcv valves that screw into the heads though to make this happen.

I was going to do this but went with the newer design. It's easy to do either way, I did like the older oil filler.

 

[Conundrum2006]

I'll try to pull the heads in the next few weeks next time off, lucky enough to have enough time off to get this done as soon as I did. Is there a side the fails more often? Is BHG or seeping gaskets a common problem? I assume the old motor must have been over heated at some point for this to happen.

 

[Hockeygoon]

After the engine was replaced in mine within a couple thousand miles the upstream oxygen sensors shot craps. Nothing like spending several thousand dollars on the vehicle only to have the check engine light pop on.