2003 Limited no ABS???

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ShafferNY

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I have a 2003 Limited Edition and while driving it today the brakes locked right up. I thought for sure this thing would have ABS. It's fully loaded with four wheel disc brakes.

Is ABS stander on the Limited Edition Libby's?

I looked under the hood and by golly, I don't see any HCU.

Why would a vehicle with so many options not have a basic safety system?

Chris
 

4Factor

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I've got an 04 Limited with no ABS. ABS was not a standard feature on ANY of the Liberty's of that generation AFAIK (05's and up probably have it as a standard option). Personally I searched high and low for a Limited without ABS. It's just what i wanted. I finally found mine about 600 miles away and it was brought to me :)

I've seen WAY too many cars with the ABS light on the dash on and the common fix is to put a piece of electric tape over the light because it's $1000+ to fix the problem. I didn't want to have a problematic system that would cause me nothing but frustration later on so I opted for no ABS. Nowadays ABS is more of a standard feature and is usually coupled with "electronic" traction control systems. I hate these systems that apply the brakes to the spinning tire, I'd much rather have a Limited Slip Differential. Good 'ol mechanical hardware instead of the problematic electronic systems are beter IMO.
 
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06Liberty

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ABS was an option until the '06 model year, then ABS and ESP/Traction Control became standard equipment. My mother's '05 Limited doesn't have it either, and she slid off the road when she hit the brakes in the rain because of it. If she had the ABS, it wouldn't have happened.

Get ready, because there are people who are gonna say stuff like "ABS, ESP, etc. are the devil" and that they do more harm than good, and that if you can't drive without them then you shouldn't be driving.

Personally, I don't agree with that....seeing as how I avoided a wreck this morning, THANKS TO MY ABS.
 

MoladoGuy

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Moved the thread to KJ General Discussion. Re-direct expires after 1 week.

I also thought ABS would be a standard...... shrug ..........
 

tjkj2002

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Get ready, because there are people who are gonna say stuff like "ABS, ESP, etc. are the devil" and that they do more harm than good, and that if you can't drive without them then you shouldn't be driving.
You are right and here it comes--------


I bet you all the money in the world that I can stop my non-ABS KJ faster then your ABS/ESP KJ on a sheet of ice.I learned how to pump my brakes and use the ****** and t-case to stop me without ever touching the brakes.I don't need a computer to pump the brake pedal,my right leg is about the only part of my body not messed up from the military.


Oh and ABS DOES NOT MAKE YOU STOP FASTER,it actually lengthens the distance to stop because locking up the tires can actually stop you faster then not having them lock up.Sorry but I can ride that fine line between locking up and not just fine.Learn how to drive without the techno gizmos before taking them for granted.Many poeple on other forums have almost been killed because ESP kicked in when not needed and they almost got t-boned from the reduction of power and applying brakes.
















Oh and ESP/ABS is the devil:D !!!!!!!!!
 

Dave

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Mine is an 05MY Limited and ABS was an option.

Dave
 

MoladoGuy

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I can understand the experience of pumping the brakes verse ABS/ESP verse locking them up. Anytime those would be required is in itself would be kinda scary. Regardless of the method used, some people will prefer one over the other. My mom is getting older and I know 99% that her reaction time is way slower than mine, so I trust the ABS on her Chevy to assist if needed. However, I personally want to have full control over without having the system step in. If on ice then your kinda screwed some way or another! tehee.
 

ShafferNY

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I guess I don't really care too much that my libby doesn't have ABS. I'm just shocked that it doesn't have it, with all ther other features it has.

My old Chevy truck didn't have it and that drive just fine. You just have to know how to drive a vehicle without ABS.

I'm certainly not going to fuel the fire as to which is better.
 

06Liberty

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Why do we keep having to re-visit this debate? tjkj2002, you are about the ONLY one I've known who swears that ABS is 100% a BAD thing. Like I've said before, the hill that my mother slid down and off the road was just a little wet from rain, no ice or anything....all she did was barely hit the brakes and it slid out of control. I went back on the SAME hill, in the SAME spot in our '06 with ABS and STOMPED on the brakes....it did nothing but come to an un-eventful, boring, & quick stop...not one tire slid.

You must be an AMAZING driver....congratulations.
 

JeepJeepster

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ABS isnt good for offroad and as you know, Jeeps are made for offroad. It was indeed an option on 2002-2005 libertys and standard after that.

Just gotta learn how much pressure it take to lock the wheels up.

FYI, the stock tires suck.
 

tjkj2002

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Why do we keep having to re-visit this debate? tjkj2002, you are about the ONLY one I've known who swears that ABS is 100% a BAD thing. Like I've said before, the hill that my mother slid down and off the road was just a little wet from rain, no ice or anything....all she did was barely hit the brakes and it slid out of control. I went back on the SAME hill, in the SAME spot in our '06 with ABS and STOMPED on the brakes....it did nothing but come to an un-eventful, boring, & quick stop...not one tire slid.

You must be an AMAZING driver....congratulations.
I just grew up on ice and snow.

The first vehicle that I owned with ABS was a '96 Ford Taruas,about got taken out by a semi(not to mention almost busted my knee when the brake pedal slammed it back into the steering wheel) due to the added length in braking distance,pulled the ABS fuse and never had a problem after that.Did the same with my '01 grand.Plus it's more fun without ABS/ESP.
 

06Liberty

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We don't get ice here, hell we don't even get snow that often.....all we have to worry about is rain.
 

Ry' N Jen

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You are right and here it comes--------


I bet you all the money in the world that I can stop my non-ABS KJ faster then your ABS/ESP KJ on a sheet of ice.I learned how to pump my brakes and use the ****** and t-case to stop me without ever touching the brakes.I don't need a computer to pump the brake pedal,my right leg is about the only part of my body not messed up from the military.


Oh and ABS DOES NOT MAKE YOU STOP FASTER,it actually lengthens the distance to stop because locking up the tires can actually stop you faster then not having them lock up.Sorry but I can ride that fine line between locking up and not just fine.Learn how to drive without the techno gizmos before taking them for granted.Many poeple on other forums have almost been killed because ESP kicked in when not needed and they almost got t-boned from the reduction of power and applying brakes.

Ditto!
Learn how to drive.
What did people do before ABS,ESP, and all that other electronic crap?

I grew up in the snow and ice. Learned to drive on twisty narrow rain soaked/mud and snow/ ice covered gravel mountain roads. In the 25 years of driving I have never caused a collision with another vehicle. Where as my brother-in-law, a retired RCMP Constable (an so called professional driver) has written off 7 police cars and mangled several personal vehicles with ABS no less!
 

kjpilot

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I agree that basic driving skills are imperative. Learn not to panic & freeze in stressful situation, & how to cooly do the proper correction.

On the flip side, I've never had an ABS system brutally attack me like that! I think the main problem was not the ABS, but that it was ABS on a Ford!:)
 

Atrus

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I wrote a whole big paper on this in college. Let me see if I can find excerpts from it when I get home. There were some interesting facts, and I don't really have the time to type them up here (at work, almost out the door).

I'll post in about an hour ;-)
 

Atrus

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Here's almost the whole paper. Don't be too harsh, I was a freshman in college when I wrote this! If you don't want to read it all, scroll down ;)



Recently, technology has improved ABS systems and made them more affordable for consumers. Despite this fact, some auto manufacturers have stopped placing antilock brakes on their standard equipment lists. Several studies have shown that ABS might not be worth the extra cost simply because they don’t function as initially expected (Phillips 1C).

Although antilock brakes pump the brakes dozens of times a second (Carley), on February 2, 1996 the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) voided the federal motor vehicle safety standard (FMVSS) requiring all new vehicles to be equipped with ABS due to controversial test results. Jane Harris explains “The manufacturers of the vehicles feel this is a very good safety feature, however there has been some controversy about the braking system, and as to whether they actually work or not” (Soukup 30). As a result of these tests, many insurance companies have also discontinued offering lower rates on vehicles equipped with ABS. An insurance agent with State Farm Insurance explained that “Initially, the automotive world expected ABS to drastically reduce the number and cost of accidents. We have since seen that the number of accidents has not decreased.” Countering the
studies’ findings, NHTSA antilock advocates retort that the studies’ results are inaccurate due to the fact that mostly sports and luxury cars are equipped with ABS. “Increases” in crash results may be the result of certain vehicle and/or driver characteristics (United States, NHTSA, “Light” 2).

First, lets take a look at one way antilock brakes make cars safer. In a standard braking system, when a driver slams on the brakes and puts the vehicle into a skid, the vehicle “has about as much directional stability as a hockey puck on ice” (Carley 1). Harris explains that “When all of a moving vehicle’s wheels lock, the vehicle tends to veer left or right. When only the front wheels lock, the vehicle’s rear moves faster then the front, causing a spinout.” During a test, ABS equipped vehicles had their systems disarmed. When stopped abruptly, every car pivoted forty-five degrees before coming to a halt. When the cars were stopped with the ABS system armed they all traveled in a fairly straight path (Harris).

Although popular belief is that antilock brakes stop vehicles faster than standard systems, having ABS doesn’t necessarily reduce stopping distances. In fact, the only time that ABS drastically reduces stopping distance is on wet pavement. ABS can cut stopping distances by up
to 25% or more on wet surfaces. The New England Journal of Medicine believes “In tests, antilock brakes give drivers superb control, particularly on wet surfaces”. On dry pavement the advantages depend heavily on the quality of the system. At best, ABS stopping distances are only marginally better than standard braking systems, and in some cases slightly worse. A
typical reduction is 10% less than conventional systems, which equals out to six feet less when a vehicle is traveling at forty miles per hour. Furthermore, there are situations where they can lengthen stopping distances. One of these situations is on either gravel or loosely packed snow.

When a wheel is locked up on these surfaces, it forces the material (snow, gravel, etc.) in front of the tire providing resistance and thus slowing the moving vehicle down. Despite the fact that vehicle control is kept, when the vehicle is on two or more different surfaces such as pavement and gravel and a quick stop is required, antilock brakes increase distance from 62% to 74% more than standard brakes. In addition to this, when ABS equipped vehicles are put through hard-cornering maneuvers, they stopped between 19% and 70% farther than conventional braking systems (Harris).

Mostly, ABS systems aid the driver by maintaining a controlled stop, allowing the driver to swerve to avoid an accident during panic stops. Ironically, this is the one of the contributing factors why ABS has not reduced the number or cost of accidents. In theory and testing, antilock brakes perform exceptionally well. Antilock systems are designed to be “fail safe”, that is, if any error occurs in the system’s electronics, the systems shuts down and reverts to a conventional braking system. Additionally, the ABS only functions in hard-braking situations, not affecting normal braking (Carley).

The problem with the tests that are conducted is that they only examine the functionality of the brakes, and not how people react to them. Fatal off-road crashes are up 28% in ABS equipped cars, non-fatal off-road crashes by 19%. Rollovers and side impacts with stationary objects are up 28%, of these the number of fatal crashes rose to 40% more than pre-ABS. On the contrary, rear-end accidents dropped 40%. On-road fatal crashes are down 24%, non-fatal by 14%. Pedistrian and bicycle accidents plunged 27% with ABS equipped cars (United States, NHTSA, “Preliminary” 4). David Willis attributes these contradictory rates to driver skill levels. He explains “When drivers are about to hit something, they often panic, jam on the brakes, and jerk the wheel. If the car has antilock brakes it will respond to the extreme steering and run off the road.” (qtd. in “improper steering”).

In addition to physical driver error, many drivers feel too safe with their antilock systems. Vehicle manuals don’t give detailed or correct instruction on ABS use. ABS propaganda implies that antilock systems provide better stopping power on all surfaces. Most users are not aware that the antilock feature helps only in extreme braking situations when the pedal is completely
depressed. Therefore, consumers drive ABS equipped cars more aggressively than vehicles sporting standard braking systems. They forget to steer in emergency situations, forfeiting the main advantage ABS provides them. The misleading ads cause drivers to think that they can drive at normal speeds on snow, ice, gravel, or rain because the ABS should allow them to stop as quickly as on dry pavement. Don Bernat, owner of Bernat’s Auto Service confirms that “many people who bring in cars after accidents claim that the ABS had to be faulty, that the car should have stopped faster than that.”

Furthermore, antilock brakes can be more expensive if part of the electronics goes bad.

The number of situations where ABS would engage and prevent the crash are very low (Harris). Large trucks and motorcycles benefit greatly from the use of ABS. Trucks have a much lower chance of jack-knifing if the front wheels don’t lock. Motorcycles have much shorter stopping distances, along with reducing the risk of a driver losing control from a skid or slide – both easily occur on a motorcycle.
 

Marlon_JB2

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If it makes anyone feel better... I drive many older cars at work and over the last 9 months that I've been employed there...

I have not had one Chrysler vehicle with an ABS error light.

_M and F_r_ and T_yo_a on the other hand..

I estimate that I've driven and parked close to 3000 cars since then.
 

Atrus

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I dunno, I've owned a Ford, my family has had MANY high milage GM's (I come from a GM family), and nmy brother had a high-milage Honda and none of them had issues.

With GM's, the brake light comes on if you're low on fluid...maybe that's why you saw them, poor maintenance.
 

Marlon_JB2

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I dunno, I've owned a Ford, my family has had MANY high milage GM's (I come from a GM family), and nmy brother had a high-milage Honda and none of them had issues.

With GM's, the brake light comes on if you're low on fluid...maybe that's why you saw them, poor maintenance.

The ABS light comes on when there's low brake fluid? What kind of sense does that make? Anyway, the ABS didn't work on that Blazer Sunday... The wheels locked up on a manhole cover. (It was slippery)

anyway, I didn't mention Honda. :D (They have... other... major issues.)
 
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