Wet Torque vs Dry Torque? Opinions please!

Ry' N Jen · Feb 27, 2009

What is the general consensus on "Wet Torque vs Dry Torque?"
Especially in regards to Lug nuts (or for some import vehicles bolts used to fasten a vehicles wheel to a hub.)
In layman's terms, applying anti seize (copper slip, Molly slip, Teflon based grease, plain old grease or some form of oil) to the threads of the wheel studs/lug nuts/ bolts then torquing the lug nut/bolt to the manufactures recommended specification.
This will of course include doing the same for engine assembly.
The stretching of threads with cut threads opposed to rolled (ARP products for example) threads and so forth.

I was taught to always apply Copper slip (or a similar product) to either the lug nuts or wheel studs and on the back of a wheel so that the wheel and hub do not fuse together due to corrosion making removal easier.
After wrenching for 30 years, am I misinformed and doing it wrong?
I have never had a wheel come off from using lubricated threads or it's torque be affected.

What are your opinions on this?

wheeee32 · Feb 27, 2009

I've always did the same as you on all vehicles I've been around. Removal of wheels has always been easier for me when applying said product or similar variant.

KJ04 · Feb 27, 2009

(popcorn)

socks said:
What is the general consensus on "Wet Torque vs Dry Torque?"
Especially in regards to Lug nuts (or for some import vehicles bolts used to fasten a vehicles wheel to a hub.)
In layman's terms, applying anti seize (copper slip, Molly slip, Teflon based grease, plain old grease or some form of oil) to the threads of the wheel studs/lug nuts/ bolts then torquing the lug nut/bolt to the manufactures recommended specification.
This will of course include doing the same for engine assembly.
The stretching of threads with cut threads opposed to rolled (ARP products for example) threads and so forth.

I was taught to always apply Copper slip (or a similar product) to either the lug nuts or wheel studs and on the back of a wheel so that the wheel and hub do not fuse together due to corrosion making removal easier.
After wrenching for 30 years, am I misinformed and doing it wrong?
I have never had a wheel come off from using lubricated threads or it's torque be affected.

What are your opinions on this?

Torque is applied pressure regardless! Wet relates to ease of removal as you stated.

(popcorn)

Powerslave · Feb 27, 2009

I oil my lugs all the time, so that would be WET torque. Still, if the lugs go on at 79ft pounds (example), it will be 79ft lbs wet or dry, the reading on the wrench will be the same. You may be thinking it's a TAD tighter wet torque, but 79lbs is 79lbs wet or dry.

ShafferNY · Feb 27, 2009

Wet is always better.

It prevent friction of the fastener and binding of the threads.

JeepJeepster · Feb 27, 2009

ShafferNY said:
Wet is always better.

It prevent friction of the fastener and binding of the threads.

Exactly. Torque is torque and socks knows that. If you try to put a lug nut on a dirty stud it will take torque just to put the lug on so youre not getting a true 100ft lbs of torque to hold the wheel on. Sure it took 100ft lbs to get it tight but thats useless if it took a 1/4 of the torque just to get it on.

Ive always used anti seize on any lug Ive taken off. I also put it all over the surface where the wheel mates up along with the hub so the wheel doesnt get stuck on. Ive had to beat them off before.

jnaut · Feb 27, 2009

JeepJeepster said:
Exactly. Torque is torque and socks knows that.

So what you're saying is, a pound of feathers weighs the same as a pound of lead...

JeepJeepster · Feb 27, 2009

jnaut said:
So what you're saying is, a pound of feathers weighs the same as a pound of lead...

And gravity is 9.8m/s^2..

tjkj2002 · Feb 27, 2009

Found this...............

Bolt torque is a subject that is often misunderstood or overlooked on basic repairs. An average technician will remove and reinstall thousands of fasteners during their career. Loose or incorrectly, torqued fasteners are amongst the most common reasons for a shop “comeback”. Sometimes hours or days after the vehicle was placed back on the road, the technician may have after thoughts of the repair. Did I tighten that bolt enough, did I over tighten that bolt (maybe with an impact gun) or should those bolts have been replaced? The intention of this article is to point out some of the most commonly overlooked or misunderstood facts about fasteners and the torque of fasteners.
Common methods for bolt torque:
•
Torque wrench
The “old standard”, used to tighten bolts to a defined torque value. Applied torque is rated in foot-pounds (ft-lbs), inch pounds (in-lbs) and/or Newton meters (Nm) for metric applications. Multiple sizes and types are used for different applications. A ¼-inch drive 100 in-lbs beam type torque wrench would be appropriate for tightening a transmission valve body; where a ½- inch drive click type torque wench can be used on passenger car lug nuts and would not make a good choice for that valve body repair. Choosing the correct tool for the job is critical.
•
Torque Angle
Torque angle gage is used in addition to a torque wrench when the bolt torque specification requires a torque value and additional tightening measured in degrees. Example: 35ft-lbs plus 90 degrees plus an additional 60 degrees making a three-step torque process. The torque angle gage is commonly used for torque to yield bolts.
•
Bolt stretch
Measuring bolt stretch requires the use of a bolt-stretch gage (with a dial indicator). This application is for high performance connecting rod bolts and engines that are disassembled on a regular basis.
This allows the technician to achieve the highest tensile strength (yield point) of the bolt with a high level of consistency. The bolt manufacturer will specify the amount of stretch.
Dry vs. Wet torque
•
When applying torque to a dry bolt more friction is created than applying torque to a wet bolt with oil or other automotive fluids on the threads. With less friction (wet threads), the bolt will stretch more before a torque wench will click. Because friction is such a big factor in bolt torque, it is important to know the difference between applying torque to a dry bolt and a wet bolt. Using oil, anti-seize or other types of thread lubricant is a common practice, but an understanding that wet threads require less torque than dry threads because of friction is very important. Since every type of lubricant has a different loss of friction coefficient, it is recommended that every technician own a chart showing how much to reduce the torque when using different bolts and lubricants. This type of chart can accompany a bolt torque table, a drill index chart for drilling and tapping, a conversion chart and a basic calculator. The “Pocket Ref” by Thomas J. Glover is a great all-in-one book with just about everything.

Ry' N Jen · Feb 27, 2009

Very interesting topic Eh?

tjkj2002 said:
Found this...............

I like your answer the best Troy!

I had to go back to basic Engineering books and all the way up to more complicated material to fully appreciate just what was being said with the question that I posted!
I looked into many a book, web site and "what have you" to read what everybody had/has to say about this topic.
I remember talking to David Vizard "The Wizard" and Dave Anton many a moon ago in person about a cam shaft I bought for my Mini (Pre scatter cam VP7) and this very topic...
The torquing of engine and transmission nuts and bolts with and without lubrication, Lock tight, etc.
Very interesting to say the least!

Dave · Feb 28, 2009

JeepJeepster said:
Exactly. Torque is torque and socks knows that. If you try to put a lug nut on a dirty stud it will take torque just to put the lug on so youre not getting a true 100ft lbs of torque to hold the wheel on. Sure it took 100ft lbs to get it tight but thats useless if it took a 1/4 of the torque just to get it on.

Ive always used anti seize on any lug Ive taken off. I also put it all over the surface where the wheel mates up along with the hub so the wheel doesnt get stuck on. Ive had to beat them off before.

Blake, you are **** just like me......haha

Dave

tjkj2002 · Feb 28, 2009

JeepJeepster said:
Exactly. Torque is torque and socks knows that. If you try to put a lug nut on a dirty stud it will take torque just to put the lug on so youre not getting a true 100ft lbs of torque to hold the wheel on. Sure it took 100ft lbs to get it tight but thats useless if it took a 1/4 of the torque just to get it on.

Ive always used anti seize on any lug Ive taken off. I also put it all over the surface where the wheel mates up along with the hub so the wheel doesnt get stuck on. Ive had to beat them off before.

Actually there is a vast difference,been dealing with it longer then you been alive.A dirty stud or a lubricated clean stud will still have the same torque if torqued to 100lbs-ft with the same calibrated torque wrench,the damage to the nut/bolt will be different between the 2 though but the torque will be the exact same no matter what.

Remind me never to allow you to take one of my wheels off.I almost was killed because of some idiot used anti-seize where dry torque was required and will severely beat anyone that puts any anti-seize on anything on my vehicle now.

ShafferNY · Mar 1, 2009

I've ALWAYS used anti-seize on wheel studs and never had a problem. Maybe the reason I've never had a problem is because I put the anti-seize on and then wipe it off, thus leaving a thin film to protect from corrosion, but not to hamper anything else.

I ususally put a thin film of anti-seize round the center of the wheel flange prior to installing a rotor too.

JeepJeepster · Mar 1, 2009

tjkj2002 said:
Actually there is a vast difference,been dealing with it longer then you been alive.A dirty stud or a lubricated clean stud will still have the same torque if torqued to 100lbs-ft with the same calibrated torque wrench,the damage to the nut/bolt will be different between the 2 though but the torque will be the exact same no matter what.

Remind me never to allow you to take one of my wheels off.I almost was killed because of some idiot used anti-seize where dry torque was required and will severely beat anyone that puts any anti-seize on anything on my vehicle now.

You may not let me take your wheel off but Ill be building the bridges and roads that you drive on..

And it seems Im not the only one that uses anti seize on my Lugs..

I thought you were 28 or so?? You were putting lugs on when you were 4?

tjkj2002 · Mar 1, 2009

JeepJeepster said:
You may not let me take your wheel off but Ill be building the bridges and roads that you drive on..

And it seems Im not the only one that uses anti seize on my Lugs..

I thought you were 28 or so?? You were putting lugs on when you were 4?

Well at least I won't be driving on them on the eastern side of the US.I was changing tires/oil since age 6,I'm 31,and rebuild my first engine(AMC 360)at age 12.

Powerslave · Mar 1, 2009

I don't use Anti-Seize, I use Lucas oil...

tjkj2002 · Mar 2, 2009

socks said:
I will still continue to lubricate my lug nuts and contact patch between the wheel and hub (with the copper based grease from VW/Audi "Which has/had instructions for this very use printed in many different languages! I would of scanned the label for all to see, but after many years the paper has taken on a coppery-grassy patina and most of the label has been smugged off. Seems the ""Anti seize/ Anti stick properties of this stuff does it's job on paper labels as well!) to make sure everything comes apart easily!

Quote:
Originally Posted by tjkj2002
Actually there is a vast difference,been dealing with it longer then you been alive.A dirty stud or a lubricated clean stud will still have the same torque if torqued to 100lbs-ft with the same calibrated torque wrench,the damage to the nut/bolt will be different between the 2 though but the torque will be the exact same no matter what.

Remind me never to allow you to take one of my wheels off.I almost was killed because of some idiot used anti-seize where dry torque was required and will severely beat anyone that puts any anti-seize on anything on my vehicle now. :Quote

Thats funny!
I know several professional mechanics who use an "Anti seize" compound on their lug nuts. And those of customers vehicles!
They also do not use an pneumatic "air gun" to torque on lug nuts. (Stretches the thread and causes damage and premature failure of the wheel stud.)
Not to mention that the average vehicle owner cannot "undo" their lug nuts if they have to change out a flat tire for the spare tire.) And that the lug nut is over torqued beyond the manufactures recommended torque specification.

You just said it yourself, and I kind of can't make sense of this statement:

"A dirty stud or a lubricated clean stud will still have the same torque if torqued to 100lbs-ft with the same calibrated torque wrench,the damage to the nut/bolt will be different between the 2 though but the ""torque will be the exact same no matter what.""

Have you tested this theory with a clean dry thread out of curiosity?

Also,

"Remind me never to allow you to take one of my wheels off.I almost was killed because of some idiot used anti-seize where dry torque was required and will severely beat anyone that puts any anti-seize on anything on my vehicle now."

But you do not state why you were "Almost killed"
Perhaps (I am assuming!) the the wheels lug nuts were not torqued properly in the first place!

I've been fortunate to drive really fast cars on drag strips, race tracks, streets, etc. (Up too 187 miles per hour- radar confirmed. That had their lug nuts lubricated with an "Anti seize" copper compound.

I'm still alive!

Man, I should of never posted this question in the first place.

The torque will be the same as stated,the dirty threads will deform the threads and not provide sufficient clamping force.The clean lubricated threads will be over torqued resulting in a stretched bolt.Same torque value 2 different damages.Clear?

The second thing.............

You must be registered for see images attach

I was feeling lazy after a 12 month deployment and wrenching for 18-20 hours a day for 365 days so I decided to have a shop install new front struts when I got back instead of doing them myself.Big mistake

.The idiot used anti seize(when thread locker was required) on the strut plates,by the pic you can see way to much,and while I was driving at 75mph the strut and strut plate separated,very nice feeling.The over use of anti-seize caused it to pool on the bottom of the blind hole and when torqued,or was thought to be torqued,it really wasn't since the excessive amount of anti-seize stopped the strut from bottoming out in the blind hole that was filled with anti-seize.That all resulted in the 2 parts working themselves apart at my expense,thank god the UCA prevented the coil from popping out.They fired the mechanic,bought me a new lift,and reimbursed me the money I spent on the struts and labor.

sleeve · Mar 2, 2009

Every bolt does have a designed in "stretch" limit. You can be under this limit or within the acceptable range, but never above. That is when failures can occur. Notes on Nuts and Bolts and another cool link... Bolt Head Grade Markings <- This one helps make sense of the markings [for those that didn't know before]

I use Anti-Seize as well on the lugs, but I check and recheck the torque values every so often. I would never use Anti-Seize on suspension parts... I'm speachless about that one.

tjkj2002 · Mar 2, 2009

socks said:
Yes, clear!

But not all bolts "Stretch"

Also, I can see why you almost could of had a mechanically induced collision or "Accident" due to the fact the the "Mechanic" used an anti seize compound instead of a thread lock compound for that particular application.

All bolts stretch with improper torque.Head bolts in engines are torque to the max bolt stretch that is not past the yield strength of the bolt(AKA-being able to return to normal length after torque is released).

JeepJeepster · Mar 2, 2009

tjkj2002 said:
All bolts stretch with improper torque.Head bolts in engines are torque to the max bolt stretch that is not past the yield strength of the bolt(AKA-being able to return to normal length after torque is released).

ohh snap.. First person Ive seen that knew what yield strength was..

Wet Torque vs Dry Torque? Opinions please!

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