Oil change!

[Liberty06]

My dealer told me that a KJ Liberty 06 oil change is $45.00 because of special oil/filter? I want to start doing my own changes..No I don't have synthetic oil...Anyone have any input? Suggestions or success stories about what oil to use? Was wondering if going Synthetic blend at 35000 would hurt?

Thanks,

Nevada

 

[Auberon]

Synthetic oils

My preference is for synthetic oils in the KJ. It matters not whether you apply my answer to diesel or petrol. Some argue that it does not matter but I could say to you they are the technically uninitiated. If comeone can argue against me on this molecular level of oil formulary then go for it.

To skim over some aspects briefly, there are good reasons:
From a lubricating prespective, the chemical structure of the oil is significant. An example from the natural world (for comparisons sake) of cracked mineral oils from Bass Strait compared to the more linear structure of those from Pennsylvania.....Penssylvanian oils are more linear on a molecular level & thus their abilty to slide (in longitudinal shear loadings) is better than those from Bass Strait. This is all relative, of course.

It is extremely possible in the formulary of fully synthetic oils to engineer this linear structure into the mix and promulgate the inlcusion of additives like solvents about which the average mechanic is kept well out of the loop as he is not a biochemist, thus, he(or she) is kept out of that structural loop as well.

A well designed synthetic oil will also include engineering with consideration of the cohesive forces to be brought to bear between the metallic and oil contact interfaces ensuring metal to metal particulate contact is avoided per the oils best performance which far exceed the shear potential of mineral oils to do so.

These design concepts have been brought to the fore with the tighter tolerancing being employed in the manufacture of these beautiful little VM diesel motors. We have narrowed tolerancing by what amounts to be many microns and this is where I also raise questions about the ability of the stock filter in the jeep to adequately filter particulate waste and put it forward that the primary duty is cooling, thus flow rate cannot be compromised.

I have not entered the realms of duty cycle nor the area of thin film , high pressure lubrication that is more adeptly provided by synthetic oils of the right grades per the manuals.

I will not discuss the role of by-pass oil filters which will filter particulates down to 0.5 microns. That is outside the scope of your question.

We are in a different world of engineering now and thinking needs to change.

This is an answer with justification.
Regards
Auberon

 

[ridenby]

Synthetics are the way to go,not as eloquent as Auberon,just makes sense,switched at 120000,when I got libby,at 185000 now no issues

 

[sharpy]

choose yure own poison. im a mobil one fan myself. can be had in 5 qt jugs at walmart very reasonably. grab a motocraft filter while yure there and an oil change is just shy of 30 bux. pretty good if u ask me.

 

[Auberon]

Oils, for those dollars wow!

Is that wot you blokes pay for Mobil 1? I am in awe. Its a wallet breaker here.
Cheers
Auberon

 

[mikey1273]

I changed my own oil already cus I was not sure the stealer did it. I think if the dealer only wants $45 I might let them do it if they are going to use a good synthetic oil. I did it myself and used Shell Rotella T 5W40 in the blue jug which is synthetic. Wal-Mart sells this for $19 per 4 quart jug. I used a Napa gold filter (about $6 with AAA disouunt) I would have doubts that they can change your oil for $45 with a synthetic and not loose money even if they get better volume prices on the oil and filter.

the drain plug is an odd thing or at least it seemed to me, its a metric Hex type bolt, 8mm I think. did not put my drain plug back in, I opted to install a fumoto valve in its place so that the oil can be drained out more neatly and I can get samples of it if I want to have an oil analysis done with less mess. The whole oil change was not that tough getting the right tool to get the stock drain plug was the toughest part.

if you are intersted in the fumoto valve here is a link

http://lubricationspecialist.com/front/shop.aspx?catid=3,16&parentid=0&productid=5

 

[CRD Joe]

If you dont use synthetic in that engine you are WRONG!

 

[Redbone]

I'm not sure why everyone is so pro synthetic even after reading our Aussie friend's write up. Certainly it is the best but lesser oils will do the job. That being said, I use Mobil 1 ONLY.
________
Outdoor European

 

[Atrus]

Walmart (5) quart jug of Mobil 1 is usually like $22-$26 depending if it's on sale. So, for $30 every 5k miles, I feel good that I am changing it often enough and using good stuff and it's cheaper than conventional every 3k

 

[Auberon]

Oil suitability

I make no apologies for this. It comes down to a simple matter:
the molecular structure;
SIZE of the oil molecules (with their inherent abilities to withstand shear forces imparted by high compression high performance engines) and the tolerances used in their manufacture does not lend itself well to mineral oils.

As you no doubt know:
Metal to metal MUST BE AVOIDED at all costs, sliding oil films and intramolecular bond integrity are the only way to withstand the forces to hand in high compression, high performance situations.

Increasing shear resistance using bigger more blocky molecules does not achieve this.

There is a right way & a wrong way here.
Choose your path wisely grasshopper.
Auberon

 

[Auberon]

Oil suitability

I make no apologies for this. It comes down to a simple matter:
the molecular structure;
SIZE of the oil molecules (with their inherent abilities to withstand shear forces imparted by high compression high performance engines) and the tolerances used in their manufacture does not lend itself well to mineral oils.

As you no doubt know:
Metal to metal MUST BE AVOIDED at all costs, sliding oil films and intramolecular bond integrity are the only way to withstand the forces to hand in high compression, high performance situations.

Increasing shear resistance using bigger more blocky molecules does not achieve this.

There is a right way & a wrong way here.
Choose your path wisely grasshopper.
Auberon

 

[Liberty06]

With Synthetic shouldn't I be able to go 7000 miles before a change?/

 

[loves_off_roading]

Hey Man first of all I recomend you get Synthetic. You will get a lot more miles in between oil changes. With reg oil changes you should change it every 3,000 miles. With Synthetic you can go up to 5,000ish and it wouldn't hurt your engine. I recomend you get two of the best:

Mobil 1 Extended Preformance Synthetic + a Purolator Premium Plus Oil Filter

 

[Redbone]

With Synthetic shouldn't I be able to go 7000 miles before a change?/

I wouldn't advise anyone to do that due to liabilities. In the early days of Mobil 1 I remember ads indicating 12k or 1 yr. That soon stopped replaced with mfg. suggestions. Some high end synthetics such as LE will go 25k but that is fleet usage where samples are taken to be sure key required ingredients are not depleted. Synthetics such as LE are formulated for extended drain intervals. Amsoil is close to LE. Mobil 1 is a dino base and it is not formulated for the extended drain periods as LE or even Amsoil.

All this being said I would feel comfortable going 7k between oil changes with Mobil 1. I WILL stop short of telling anyone else it is o.k.


FYI, I just changed my oil at 65k on my truck. 6 qts/10W-30 Mobil 1 & 1 Purolator Pure One filter. 3500 of those miles were put on in 9 days. The oil appearance was better than ever and looked like it should be able to go another 5k.

 

[Redbone]

I don't know what the deal is in the US with these ridiculous oilchanges at 3000 miles, over here my service manual says : oil change every 6213 miles / 10k kilometers. And that is pretty quick for us, my other car only gets an oil change at 20k kilometers, or 12427 miles! (Both DIESEL engines)

We used to do oilchanges at 3000 miles / 5k kilometers...back in 1960...

And overhere Mobil 1 is a full syn oil.

The manual says if that program fails I should change it every 3,000 miles or 12 months whichever comes first. In the '60s it was 6k in clean conditions or 3k in dusty conditions. In '70s it went to 7,500/3k. My GMC (only book I have handy right now) has a computer program telling me when to change oil. It may have notified me 3 times in the 65,000 miles I've had it.kopkrab.gif I am comfortable extending that to 5k using Mobil 1. I would even go to 7,500 if I drove more ... as I stated above.

If you are talking about my statement "Mobil 1 is a dino base and it is not formulated for the extended drain periods as LE or even Amsoil." I am referring to the base stock that is used to produce the synthetic base for the oil. "formulated" is a poor choice of word. Without checking current info I remember Amsoil using esters as their stock for the synthesis process. ExxonMobil uses Petroleum oil and I'm not certain its final product, Mobil 1 is a real synthetic. Instead it goes through a "severe refining" process to get to a "higher degree of purity". Also the additive package carrier is petroleum oil, about 10% of total. Mobil 1 has been advertised over here as a 100% synthetic over here too. Personally I consider it a high quality conventional oil.

 

[Auberon]

Duty cycle

It is simply that oils are better suited to the duty cycle that is asked of them and bio-chemistry is better understood. I agree with Tony's comments.

Our great little VM motors and Jeeps belong to a rapidly evolving application of precision to production that most can't conceptualise....and the old ideas apply with a distinct increase in precision. It is a case of moving with the times.

Applied engineering and the base application of science have not changed....they are just better understood and applied. They impact our lives to an ever greater degree, however, and this is where people misunderstand unless they have taken much trouble to grow the necessary knowledge base to back it up or have the life experience to understand the whys and wherefores.

By this I don't mean the odd article by a particular manufacturer who stands to benefit from the promotion of a given minor technological idea. These can always be discounted & I make this statement with the reservation that reasonable proof with statistical certainty and good scientific method - not just heresay and gossip are the basis of sound knowledge gain.

Please don't short-cut & follow or exceed (in a positive way) recommendations.
Cheers
Auberon

 

[gsbrockman]

I have an idea............

I have an idea......how about taking some oil samples and performing oil analysis ???? Unless someone else previously mentioned it and I overlooked it, please excuse me for the oversight.

My 2005 Liberty Limited CRD came factory fill with 0W40 Mobil 1. I used the same oil the next two oil changes; the oil became very difficult to find. I then switched to good ol' 5W40 Rotella-T Synthetic. My last oil analysis came back great; even at 5900 miles, my oil's TBN was at 9.2. The soot levels were normal, but I still don't think I'd want to stretch it much more than 8k miles personally. I have a hard time relying / trusting an oil filter much beyond 8k miles.

In my opinion........oil is cheap and engine repairs can be expensive.

Greg

 

[Redbone]

It is simply that oils are better suited to the duty cycle that is asked of them and bio-chemistry is better understood. I agree with Tony's comments.

Our great little VM motors and Jeeps belong to a rapidly evolving application of precision to production that most can't conceptualise....and the old ideas apply with a distinct increase in precision. It is a case of moving with the times.

Applied engineering and the base application of science have not changed....they are just better understood and applied. They impact our lives to an ever greater degree, however, and this is where people misunderstand unless they have taken much trouble to grow the necessary knowledge base to back it up or have the life experience to understand the whys and wherefores.

By this I don't mean the odd article by a particular manufacturer who stands to benefit from the promotion of a given minor technological idea. These can always be discounted & I make this statement with the reservation that reasonable proof with statistical certainty and good scientific method - not just heresay and gossip are the basis of sound knowledge gain.

Please don't short-cut & follow or exceed (in a positive way) recommendations.
Cheers
Auberon

Very eloquently put. As a dumb ole country boy I see things from a simpler perspective.

Engines: Basically the same as they have been for a number of years with a few changes in tolerances due to better manufacturing technology. To my eye they look the same internally today as they did 40 years ago.

Engine lube: Same old conventional oil coming out of the same old refineries. No new refineries built since mid '70s. Synthetic posers such as Mobil 1 and counterparts from Shell, Pennzoil, Castrol, Valvoline are just cleaned up a little more (less sulphur ...) And real synthetics derived from PAOs and esters using synthesis to produce final base lubricant of 90+% actual "synthetic".

Modern engine/lube interface: Nothing magic has occured in recent years. Good oil in an engine of recent manufacture will out live the rest of the components that make up the vehicle.

I can find no support for those that say heavier oils can't be used in the newer engines due to close tolerances. Really!??! Thicker oil can't get in???? Actually the thinner oil is for a micro amount of mpg improvement. It comes at the expense of engine wear. A brand new engine of 2010 loves 10W-40 as much as a 1975 engine does.

 

[Redbone]

I have an idea......how about taking some oil samples and performing oil analysis ???? Unless someone else previously mentioned it and I overlooked it, please excuse me for the oversight.

My 2005 Liberty Limited CRD came factory fill with 0W40 Mobil 1. I used the same oil the next two oil changes; the oil became very difficult to find. I then switched to good ol' 5W40 Rotella-T Synthetic. My last oil analysis came back great; even at 5900 miles, my oil's TBN was at 9.2. The soot levels were normal, but I still don't think I'd want to stretch it much more than 8k miles personally. I have a hard time relying / trusting an oil filter much beyond 8k miles.

In my opinion........oil is cheap and engine repairs can be expensive.

Greg

The one thing oil testing doesn't show is the effect that shearing of the viscosity improver polymers. At some point the 0W-40 becomes more like an SAE 20. The 5W-40 would be about the same. It does this at the worst possible times, under the heaviest loadings.

Multi vis oils are nothing more than the base oil, say 5 weight, with viscosity improvers added to get the higher rating, say 40 weight. In this case we just made 5W-40.

 

[gsbrockman]

The one thing oil testing doesn't show is the effect that shearing of the viscosity improver polymers.

I always thought Blackstone Lab's "Properties" section (SUS Viscosity @ 210*F and cSt Viscosity @ 100*C) addressed that issue....................