Negative battery cables?

[JohnnyGoneWild]

Hello all! First time posting on here..

I discovered a bad ground connection between the engine and chassis. Also the negative cables coming off the battery terminal are very coroded. I figured I would replace the negative to chassis, negative to engine block, and engine to chassis cables. Trouble is I can't find where the negative cable attaches to the engine. Do I get to it above or underneath? I tried following the negative cable down but it gets lost in a web of wires.

Also, anyone who has replaced all the cables have any advice?

Thanks a lot!

 

[GunnerSchenck]

How did you discover a bad ground between the engine and chassis if you can't locate it?
You can ground an engine to the chassis from any point without even having to take off the old ground.
If the new one has less resistance(which it will if the stock one is actually bad) then the electricity will always take the path of least resistance and ground itself through the new ground.

Try to keep the new wires as short as possible, and ensure they won't be in the way of any mechanical moving parts, or directly in a heat zone of your exhaust or engine parts.. and deeeffinaaatteeellyyy keep away from the belt routing area. Better places to ground out the engine to chassis.

My advice would be to look through some of the "big three" upgrade threads and try to use at least 4g wire. 1/0g wire works the best, but gets pricey very quickly.
Oxygen-Free Copper(OFC) Is what you'll want to use. Copper Clad Aluminum(CCA) will work, but the difference is vast, and this shows in the difference in prices.
If you choose CCA wire, at least watch a video on the differences between the two to see why I suggest OFC.
Even 4g OFC would be better than 1/0 CCA.

Though this may seem like a difficult task at first, the hardest part is finding where you'll want to mount the new wire.


But, you can also just buy a new replacement ground cable as you were saying.. it will likely cost slightly less, but will actually be higher resistance and more limiting to the amount of current you can run through it, than what I just described.

But to me, sounds like you're basically trying to do the big three upgrade already, just with stock parts.. personally i wouldn't bother, and would just go for the Big 3 upgrade, or even the big 4 if you run a lot of aftermarket accessories that have higher draws(leds, amplifiers, etc.)

 

[JohnnyGoneWild]

Thanks for the response.

I used a volt meter to test for resistance around the engine while it was running. I found a 0.14 voltage drop between the engine and chassis. I think its causing my elusive electrical problems (13.1V charging, random misfires, low idle and dimming lights).

I've already changed the plugs, coil packs, as well as clean the TB and replace the IAC and TPS. I also replaced the battery and alternator since buying it last year.

Im planning on adding a 6 awg wire from the back of the right header to the chassis ground bolt above. Directly overtop the old engine ground strap. Ill be sure to look for OFC wire.

As for the battery negative to engine, I'll definitely search around for the big 3 upgrade and see what turns up.

Thanks again.

 

[uss2defiant]

there are 2 ground straps that goes from the firewall to the engine.

You could always just add an additional ground strap from the battery negative to the jeep's body.

 

[LibertyTC]

The ground strap splits off mounting into 2....
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positions of the rear of cyl head...
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I think that would be a difficult place to access...?
In essence it would be easier just to install a new wire from battery negative to a stud on body.
A pre made 8 gauge short battery cable would do the job well .

 

[JohnnyGoneWild]

Yes, the bolt for the engine strap on the passenger side is impossible to get to. However the driver side is reachable. Im going to use a 6 awg wire from that point to the firewall.

Thanks a lot for the picture. My strap does not look like yours. Its all charred up like a tiki torch wic ha.

As for the negative terminal to the engine, I'm stumped. I guess I'll just run a new cable to a new point on the engine. But I'm still really curious as to where that negative cable attaches.

Could I remove the old negative cable from the battery terminal and just tape it off and leave it in there. Then attach the new cable? Btw my cables are all bare wires shoved into those clamp style terminals. I want to use lug rings.

 

[LibertyTC]

Replace them cables..
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There are 2 negative battery grounds!
See G105 and G106. FSM states both on left side of engine as ground mounting points.
Where ?? Hang in there lets see if Bill can help out...

 

[JasonJ]

I'd definitely proceed with upgrading and replacing your grounds and negative cables, HOWEVER... a 0.14v voltage drop should not cause the issues you are describing. The alternator output varies by more than that as normal operation.

 

[LibertyTC]

13.1 volts charging seems low. What brand of battery& alternator did you buy?
With no load (no lights on & cold) I see 14.2v.
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Get terminals corrosion free or replaced & tight. Trickle charge the battery, get it load tested, and you should have the ALT tested too.
AGM sealed batteries wont offer corrosion to terminals.

 

[JohnnyGoneWild]

Wow 2 ground points! I can tell this is going to get interesting. I'll try and poke around again tomorrow and see what I can find.

I have an Everstart battery from Walmart. The battery that was in the Jeep when I bought it failed under warranty. It too was an Everstart, so I just took it to Walmart and exchanged it for a new one. Its a standard battery, 850 CCA. A nice AGM battery is definitely on the wish list for sure.

My alternator is a DB Electrical, 136 Amps. Bought it new off Amazon. Unfortunately, I bought it to fix the low voltage problem but no change.

I am not familar with trickle charging..

Battery holds at 12.4 volts with the engine off. Charging is around 13.2 volts with the headlights on. If I hit the power windows, it dips down to 12.6 volts and the RPMs drop.

 

[LibertyTC]

Windows down & rpms drop- is you belt tight- good tensioner?
I fired my Jeep up in the cold -6c this AM, lights on, and it read 15volts output.
My alt is working well and the PCM is working well too.
Get grounds addressed firstly. Have the ALT electronically tested by a shop that can perform this work or take it out and have the ALT bench tested. (autozone)
Trickle charging is manually charging with a low amp float type automatic charger like the C-tek. link: Battery Chargers - CTEK Battery Chargers
After a trickle charge at room temp, 12 hours after disconnecting, ia good battery should read 12.67 volts aprox.
A hydrometer can be used to read state of charge/specific gravity reading on battery with removable caps. Link: http://www.jeepkj.com/forum/f202/maintain-check-your-lead-acid-battery-removable-caps-47021/
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My new C-tek 4.3 amp is awesome and comes with quick disconnects.
Trickle charge while still connected to battery.

 

[JasonJ]

"Battery holds at 12.4 volts with the engine off. Charging is around 13.2 volts with the headlights on. If I hit the power windows, it dips down to 12.6 volts and the RPMs drop."

That is not normal. should be a bit higher than 12.4v off after resting, especially for a new battery. Brand is largely irrelevant for a wet acid automotive battery, only about half a dozen manufacturers out there making them for everyone.

I'd follow LibertyTC's advice. You need to trickle charge that battery for a good 8-12 hours indoors. I'd remove the alternator and have it tested on the bench too. Sounds like the stator is crap. Output voltage should not drop to basically nothing when operating the windows. Drop down to 12.6 is essentially nothing from the alternator, just battery voltage remaining.

Certainly shoddy grounds can cause that, but nonetheless, if the alt is bench tested and shows good output under load, and the battery charges up and holds steady at 12.5-12.7v an hour after removing from the charger, then you know it's not those two items.

I believe the PCM in the KJ regulates alternator voltage output.... so if all else checks good, this may the route you need to follow for further diagnostics as well.

 

[fastcarsspeed]

I would get rid of that Neverstart battery as soon as possible. My 02 came with a brand new Everstart and it was horrible. I went out and purchased a new battery immediately. I use Advance Auto for my batteries these days. We put the everstart on the counter next to my new battery and the weight difference alone was astonishing.

 

[JasonJ]

I would get rid of that Neverstart battery as soon as possible. My 02 came with a brand new Everstart and it was horrible. I went out and purchased a new battery immediately. I use Advance Auto for my batteries these days. We put the everstart on the counter next to my new battery and the weight difference alone was astonishing.

Perhaps. Everstart is made by Johnson Controls, who at one time was the largest of only perhaps 3 automotive battery manufacturers. There are more now, however. EverStart is simply the brand name slapped on it to sell at Walmart..

I would not doubt that they are made to a lower standard, or to reach a certain price point, likely by using less lead in the plates. But, it is made by a reputable mfgr nonetheless.

Even still, the voltage readings don't seem to indicate that it is healthy, or at least fully charged.

For the record, I am using a whatever brand battery sold by my local Meijer store. They are sold under the brand name "Pro Cell", used to be made by Excide.. didn't check more recently. Usually if it's a battery distributed by Deka or JCI (Johnson Controls), it's a good battery.

 

[Logan Savage]

That negative battery cable on the drivers side of the block is a real bear to get to . Don't ask me how I know . It's in behind the oil filter & real close to the motor mount . Even with the oil filter off it's almost impossible to get to .

 

[JohnnyGoneWild]

Alright so I'll give trickle charging a try. Right after I sort out the bad grounds situtation. So I can at least cross that off the list. Its been finger numbing cold here in Philly, PA. And I have street parking only. Good times.

If I can't reach the grounds on the engine I might just leave it alone. Or run a new cable.

Is trickle charging a one time thing when I put in a battery? Or do you do it as a form of routine maintenance?

I'll move onto the alternator after that.

I attached a picture of my negative terminal. You can see the sad state of the cable..

 

[Logan Savage]

Is the terminal crimped around both those wires ? If it is & you can get the crimped piece off the wires you could clean up the wires & clamp them both together in the battery terminal .

 

[JasonJ]

Alright so I'll give trickle charging a try. Right after I sort out the bad grounds situtation. So I can at least cross that off the list. Its been finger numbing cold here in Philly, PA. And I have street parking only. Good times.

If I can't reach the grounds on the engine I might just leave it alone. Or run a new cable.

Is trickle charging a one time thing when I put in a battery? Or do you do it as a form of routine maintenance?

I'll move onto the alternator after that.

I attached a picture of my negative terminal. You can see the sad state of the cable..

I've seen worse.. with that replacement style terminal clamp, you can remove the end of the neg cable and clean the surface corrosion off of it... might help. Otherwise, I'd only re-run the cables I could get to, and I'd run new ones for the others.

A trickle charge is the kind of charging you do to a battery that is low or weak, when you want to ensure that it can soak up and retain as much voltage as possible, for long term use. A fast charge charges at a higher amperage, and potentially can damage a battery as it generates a lot of heat, and too many amps will overload a battery and can cause it to explode (this typically happens if the battery is frozen, low on acid, or a smaller capacity like a motorcycle battery). ALSO, NEVER charge a frozen battery or one that has insufficient fluid.

The trickle charge isn't normally done throughout the life of a battery, as the alternator outputs the few extra volts necessary to keep the battery topped off. But when troubleshooting, and testing things, it's done when the battery shows lower than nominal voltage as a means to ensure you are working with a healthy and fully charged battery.

On the vehicle itself, if the battery is low, weak, or otherwise cant do the job properly, it can throw off all of your other diagnostics. Example, a good alternator will test as bad when tested with a low voltage battery, even if it's enough to start the engine. This happens because there isn't enough voltage left to energize the stator and cause the alternator to output any voltage of it's own.

Remember that alternators are not generators, and only produce a variable voltage of 1-3 volts over that of the battery...

 

[renegade 04]

I would clean the end of the cables and then get a new solder on type terminal, when I did my big electrical upgrade I went with solider on type terminals and they are the best thing for the money. The only thing is that to solider the new terminal end on you need to use a propane torch and you will also need electrical soldering paste.

 

[GunnerSchenck]

I would clean the end of the cables and then get a new solder on type terminal, when I did my big electrical upgrade I went with solider on type terminals and they are the best thing for the money. The only thing is that to solider the new terminal end on you need to use a propane torch and you will also need electrical soldering paste.

This is the way I did it as well with my big 3 upgrade.. minus the soldering paste.. I just used ALOT of solder wire lol.. I'm talking like half a small roll per 1/0 awg wires terminal. I used ring terminals on most of it, but a crimp type for the battery terminal.