Help Overheating and won't start w/o starting fluid

[jacobs1976]

I have a 02 Liberty that will not start unless you spray it with starting fluid. The temperature gauge immediately goes to hot and the fan comes on within 30 seconds of running. There is no heat coming from the vents as well. I initially thought it was low on coolant or the thermostat wasn't opening but the whole fan coming on deal is making me dismiss that idea. I was thinking maybe the temperature sending unit could be sending a bad reading but I'm not sure how to test that or where it is located. Please help!!!

 

[offrovering]

have you compared IR temp reading to your guage/obdII reading? could be a bad sensor, but it may actually be getting hot. air in the system?

 

[tjkj2002]

Well 1st of all you just destroyed your engine by using starting fluid,gas engines should never be started with the stuff,only diesels.

Check your coolant level and engine oil level.

 

[JeepJeepster]

Since you have no heat I would check the coolant level. If its low then the engine is probably toast from over heating(no coolant) and you have a coolant leak(could be water pump or radiator). Have you ever seen a check engine light?

The engine being toast would explain the need of starting fluid which further ruins the engine by removing oil from the piston walls. How does it run once its been started?

Checked the spark plugs?

Is the engine actually over heating? Could be something amiss with the PCM. Any codes?

Have you checked the compression? Check the oil..

 

[belvedere]

The temperature gauge immediately goes to hot

I just want to make sure I understand: if you start the engine cold, the temp gauge swings to HOT immediately? If so, then yes, I'd look at a sensor or computer problem.

You should get this figured out pronto. While I don't think a gas engine is ruined by a shot of ether, it sure isn't ideal, either.

 

[Robocody]

Well 1st of all you just destroyed your engine by using starting fluid,gas engines should never be started with the stuff,only diesels.

Check your coolant level and engine oil level.

Hold up.


Ether does not harm a gas engine. To say that is sheer tomfoolery.

My previous ride was a (I know, laugh your heart out) 1993 Toyota Tercel... Say what you want, but 40 MPG was nice.

Almost every morning that it was colder than 20 degrees, which was most of the time during the winter, It wouldn't start without a shot of starting fluid.

I owned that car for years. That is at least fifty shots of ether a year, for six years. You do the math.

I sold the old girl once I bought my KJ because I figured that she would serve someone else for a long time yet.

My point is, when I sold her, she had 230k+ miles on her, and was still running strong. I had put 150,000 miles on that car, all the while starting it with ether in the winter, multiple times a day. There is no way that he "Destroyed" his engine with one shot of ether.

 

[tjkj2002]

Hold up.


Ether does not harm a gas engine. To say that is sheer tomfoolery.

My previous ride was a (I know, laugh your heart out) 1993 Toyota Tercel... Say what you want, but 40 MPG was nice.

Almost every morning that it was colder than 20 degrees, which was most of the time during the winter, It wouldn't start without a shot of starting fluid.

I owned that car for years. That is at least fifty shots of ether a year, for six years. You do the math.

I sold the old girl once I bought my KJ because I figured that she would serve someone else for a long time yet.

My point is, when I sold her, she had 230k+ miles on her, and was still running strong. I had put 150,000 miles on that car, all the while starting it with ether in the winter, multiple times a day. There is no way that he "Destroyed" his engine with one shot of ether.

"Destroyed" was a relative term,though you should never use ether in a gas engine,using ether can make a engine a "bottle baby" which means it most likely will not start without that shot of ether(diesels are famous for this) and that's why yours never started when cold was due to being a "bottle baby" which effectively "destroyed" your engine.


Might want to read up on what ether actually does and why it is so bad for a gas engine.Plus if you need ether to start a engine there is a major problem with it somewhere.

 

[Robocody]

"Destroyed" was a relative term,though you should never use ether in a gas engine,using ether can make a engine a "bottle baby" which means it most likely will not start without that shot of ether(diesels are famous for this) and that's why yours never started when cold was due to being a "bottle baby" which effectively "destroyed" your engine.


Might want to read up on what ether actually does and why it is so bad for a gas engine.Plus if you need ether to start a engine there is a major problem with it somewhere.

Actually, You couldn't be more wrong. It wouldn't start when cold because the timing belt had skipped a tooth. It resulted in better gas mileage, but was harder to start, so I didn't fix it.

Hmmm... What ether actually does. It combusts. Like gas. It goes in through the air intake, into the cylinder, and explodes. Inside the cylinder.The cylinder that has been designed to cope with explosions. It maybe fuels 4 full revolutions of the engine, so Burning hot wouldn't and doesn't matter. It's not nearly enough time to heat anything up past where it is heated by gas combustion, and It burns almost 100% clean, so there is no chance of it "varnishing" anything on the inside of the engine.

So, in your opinion, what does ether do that is detrimental to a gas engine? Please, enlighten me.

As for becoming a "bottle baby"... I don't know about diesel, but for gas engines it just doesn't make sense. There is always an underlying problem that causes an engine to need ether (like skipped timing), but ether by no means causes an engine to need it at startup. Ether is a temporary fix, not the cause of a problem.

Maybe ether waits in the cylinder and makes scary faces so the gas is afraid to come in?

An engine is a machine, and things don't jsut happen because You've heard they happen that way. A lot of what people say about the mechanisms of any vehicle are heresay, and half-baked theories that just don't pan out.

Saying ether hurts a gas engine is like saying that you can't switch between synthetic and dino oil.

 

[tjkj2002]

Actually, You couldn't be more wrong. It wouldn't start when cold because the timing belt had skipped a tooth. It resulted in better gas mileage, but was harder to start, so I didn't fix it.

Hmmm... What ether actually does. It combusts. Like gas. It goes in through the air intake, into the cylinder, and explodes. Inside the cylinder.The cylinder that has been designed to cope with explosions. It maybe fuels 4 full revolutions of the engine, so Burning hot wouldn't and doesn't matter. It's not nearly enough time to heat anything up past where it is heated by gas combustion, and It burns almost 100% clean, so there is no chance of it "varnishing" anything on the inside of the engine.

So, in your opinion, what does ether do that is detrimental to a gas engine? Please, enlighten me.

As for becoming a "bottle baby"... I don't know about diesel, but for gas engines it just doesn't make sense. There is always an underlying problem that causes an engine to need ether (like skipped timing), but ether by no means causes an engine to need it at startup. Ether is a temporary fix, not the cause of a problem.

Maybe ether waits in the cylinder and makes scary faces so the gas is afraid to come in?

An engine is a machine, and things don't jsut happen because You've heard they happen that way. A lot of what people say about the mechanisms of any vehicle are heresay, and half-baked theories that just don't pan out.

Saying ether hurts a gas engine is like saying that you can't switch between synthetic and dino oil.

So you did have a problem,having the belt slip a tooth is very bad since the PCM is trying to compinsate for it and will lead to futher slipping and breakage.Guess you didn't now that those timing belts need to be changed every 60,000-100,000 miles since 99% of timing belt engines are interferance engines.You got damn lucky.

Oh and ether dries out the cylinder walls,bad for engine,and since it has a extremely low flame point it can cause major predetination in gas engines that leads to cracked heads and/or blocks.In a compression fired engine it can be very useful but can destroy a spark ignition engine.

 

[Robocody]

So you did have a problem,having the belt slip a tooth is very bad since the PCM is trying to compinsate for it and will lead to futher slipping and breakage.Guess you didn't now that those timing belts need to be changed every 60,000-100,000 miles since 99% of timing belt engines are interferance engines.You got damn lucky.

Oh and ether dries out the cylinder walls,bad for engine,and since it has a extremely low flame point it can cause major predetination in gas engines that leads to cracked heads and/or blocks.In a compression fired engine it can be very useful but can destroy a spark ignition engine.

Ok, It's becoming obvious that we're just arguing to argue, and neither one of us is going to listen to what the other is actually saying. Which is fine.

I didn't get lucky. I knew very well that the engine was running lean, and that the 3E-E engine in the tercel was and is a non-interferance engine. Most toyota engines are non-interference. They only manufactured 3 interference engines, and that was a LONG time ago. Maybe you should learn a bit more about the cars you are trying to sound like an expert on before you go spouting off facts. I checked the belt for ware regularly, and It was fine. Hence the running it for 150,000 miles without a problem. The facts are in my favor. There was no additional slippage, and it kept, and is still running to this day. There was no damage. The engine was just running lean. People do that on purpose.

So starting fluid dries out the cylinder walls In the 2-3 seconds that the cylinders are firing using it as fuel, even though with each rotation of the engine, gas is getting pumped into the cylinders along with what is left of the starting fluid? And to top it off, It does all this drying out of the cylinders before the engine reaches operating temperature. Right, That totally makes sense, and I'll believe it when I see documentation from a proffessional. Or it tells me in my operator's manual not to use ether.

On a side not, and because I love arguing, The word "Destroyed" isn't in any way shape or form relative. It means to do massive damage.

It isn't measurably detrimental to use ether to start a gas engine. I've been doing it on all sorts of engines (Lawn mower, car, four wheeler, and snowmobile) for my entire life with no ill effects.

But I degress... this thread isn't about My timing belt, It's about Jacob's Liberty.

If possible, When the engine is running and the gauge shows hot, feel the coolant hose that goes INTO the radiator. If it's cold, or touchable after a couple minutes of running... then chances are it's a stuck thermostat or a bad sensor. The fans will come on when the gauge reads hot, whether the thermostat is stuck or not.

 

[tjkj2002]

People do that on purpose.

Then your not to bright,people don't do that on purpose,they actually reprogram the PCM.

3E-E engine in the tercel was and is a non-interferance engine.

So which one? Not sure? Doesn't sound like it.

I never said I was a toyota expert,just stated that you had a pre-existing problem with yours and if it was fixed you would never need a cold start aid that is very harmful to spark ignition engines.I stay away from import crap like toyota's and honda's,therers no mony to be made by working on them becuase there owners are cheapo's.

 

[belvedere]

Valvoline says their starting fluid can be used on gas or diesel, and contains an upper cylinder lube.

http://www.valvoline.com/pages/products/product_detail.asp?product=41

Here's more general info:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starting_fluid

I'm baffled by the "bottle baby" thing. How can an engine become "addicted"? Never heard of such a thing.

 

[Robocody]

Ok, You are a making yourself look like a fool.


"Import crap"... Exactly, that's why the domestic "Big three" are asking to government to bail them out. So that they can re-tool their factories, and create more reliable vehicles. Like that "Import Crap" American cars have been playing around far too much with engineered obsilescence, and got bit in the ass because of it. The exact reason they are going belly up.

I am the proud owner of a jeep, But the "Import crap" You talk about, Hondas, Toyotas, Subarus, and to a lesser degree Nissans, Are far better known for reliability and higher mileage.

The only domestic vehicles that I can think of that even come close to standing up in reliability are Jeeps, and Some fords (Like the Ranger, What a truck).

You are making huge generalizations. HUGE ones.

I currently own a '93 Honda Accord, a '97 Subaru outback, a '93 Ford ranger, and my 2003 Kj.

I got rid of a '97 Cavalier because it threw a rod bearing at 60,000 miles.

I didn't buy my cars because of what block headed people say about them... I bought them because every one of these vehicles is known for standing up against the test of time. The honda has 180,000 miles, and all original parts. The Ranger has 140,000... and the outback has 230,000 mile, and my kj now has 150,000 miles. Not to mention that toyota I sold to a friend with over 230,000.

If you are going to ignore proven standards of reliability... Then there is no use arguing with you any more. You will not listen to reason or logic. You are one of the guys who Gets an Idea in his head and keeps it, even if he is most definately wrong. Oh... and "Ewe must bee wright eyem naught two brite".

 

[sleeve]

I'm not getting envolved with this arguement about starting fluid but I want to correct a small perception.

The US Auto Industry is not the only manufacturing industry seeking governement aid. USA today: Europe wants a bailout too

The whole world is in a recession and it's effecting everyone. Even Toyota who will post their first quarterly loss ever.

 

[Robocody]

Yeah, I do understand what you are saying, and I am making generalizations myself... but peugeot is a far cry from The larger companies such as GM and Toyota... It does hold true, however, that The Big Three are posting Much larger losses than any other auto companies.

 

[tjkj2002]

Ok, You are a making yourself look like a fool.


"Import crap"... Exactly, that's why the domestic "Big three" are asking to government to bail them out. So that they can re-tool their factories, and create more reliable vehicles. Like that "Import Crap" American cars have been playing around far too much with engineered obsilescence, and got bit in the ass because of it. The exact reason they are going belly up.

I am the proud owner of a jeep, But the "Import crap" You talk about, Hondas, Toyotas, Subarus, and to a lesser degree Nissans, Are far better known for reliability and higher mileage.

The only domestic vehicles that I can think of that even come close to standing up in reliability are Jeeps, and Some fords (Like the Ranger, What a truck).

You are making huge generalizations. HUGE ones.

I currently own a '93 Honda Accord, a '97 Subaru outback, a '93 Ford ranger, and my 2003 Kj.

I got rid of a '97 Cavalier because it threw a rod bearing at 60,000 miles.

I didn't buy my cars because of what block headed people say about them... I bought them because every one of these vehicles is known for standing up against the test of time. The honda has 180,000 miles, and all original parts. The Ranger has 140,000... and the outback has 230,000 mile, and my kj now has 150,000 miles. Not to mention that toyota I sold to a friend with over 230,000.

If you are going to ignore proven standards of reliability... Then there is no use arguing with you any more. You will not listen to reason or logic. You are one of the guys who Gets an Idea in his head and keeps it, even if he is most definately wrong. Oh... and "Ewe must bee wright eyem naught two brite".

Might want to check your facts about who is getting bailed out by the government,and there not retooling to build more reliable vehicles,there retooling to make cheap junk to imitate import junk and do it cheap.European car companies are about as big as the "big 3",just more so in Eruope,same story just different names.I'm not ignoring the reliability issue,imports just don't have any,been turning wrenches for a long time and I've had less problems with American built vehicles then my friends have had with import junk from years of wrench turning.At my job if a import vehicle comes in they are less likely to fix anything that is wrong then domestic vehicle owners,it's a proven fact at my shop.I don't even recommend anything for imports anymore since it's waste of my time to do so.You might want to recheck the reliability of imports also,they have taken a noise dive,don't come back with those consumer reports sites either since they base there lies on who gives them more money,they rate a crv better offroad then a Rubicon TJ/JK since Jeep doesn't pay them for a good review.All vehicles have problems,it has alot to do with how you upkeep a vehicle but sometimes you get lucky and get a vehicle you can't kill.

I don't even count cars anymore for anything since they all are junk,wouldn't own any car to save my life.Again from my experiance.

 

[Robocody]

Might want to check your facts about who is getting bailed out by the government,and there not retooling to build more reliable vehicles,there retooling to make cheap junk to imitate import junk and do it cheap.European car companies are about as big as the "big 3",just more so in Eruope,same story just different names.I'm not ignoring the reliability issue,imports just don't have any,been turning wrenches for a long time and I've had less problems with American built vehicles then my friends have had with import junk from years of wrench turning.At my job if a import vehicle comes in they are less likely to fix anything that is wrong then domestic vehicle owners,it's a proven fact at my shop.I don't even recommend anything for imports anymore since it's waste of my time to do so.You might want to recheck the reliability of imports also,they have taken a noise dive,don't come back with those consumer reports sites either since they base there lies on who gives them more money,they rate a crv better offroad then a Rubicon TJ/JK since Jeep doesn't pay them for a good review.All vehicles have problems,it has alot to do with how you upkeep a vehicle but sometimes you get lucky and get a vehicle you can't kill.

I don't even count cars anymore for anything since they all are junk,wouldn't own any car to save my life.Again from my experiance.

I see... so in this statement, you continue to bash Imports with no evidence or citations, as well as forbidding consumer report sites from being used as informative sources... because there is some big conspiracy against the Detroit big three.

OK.

Well, let's do this right.

To start off, give yourself a base knowledge in what we are talking about. It's not hard. Here, I'll give you an article that compares the financial status of Our big three to Toyota and Honda.

http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2008/12/17/18555247.php

Companies like Peugeot Aren't mentioned, and for good reason. Quite frankly, they are too small. It would be like comparing McDonalds and Burger King to a family run hot-dog stand.


Now. To the reliability issue. Here's the CNN website... Stating that Asian cars are more reliable on a whole than domestic.


http://money.cnn.com/2006/11/08/autos/cr_most_reliable/index.htm

Here is a direct quote from the above CNN article. "The owner of the M-class is likely to experience 10 times as many problems as the owner the Highlander Hybrid, the magazine said." Please, tell me where you are getting that imports have more problems. Show me any facts that support your statement.

Here's FORBES Magazine. It explains how Domestic Vehicles just don't stand up to Imports when it comes to build quality and reliability,

http://www.forbes.com/vehicles/2006/04/20/reliable-vehicles-japanese_cx_dl_0424feat.html

And finally, Here's the JD Powers and Assoc. Website... It shows that Imports are among the most reliable vehicles... And also shows some of the more luxurious Domestic cars as being up there in reliability, So that should dispel your Idea that it is paid to say that American cars are less reliable. Which is ridiculous anyway.

http://www.jdpower.com/autos/ratings/dependability-ratings-by-brand/sortcolumn-1/ascending/page-#page-anchor


All in all, I think these sources are far more believable than "Years of wrench turning". Even if you don't realize it... You have a major bias against imports... and that is clouding your judgment big-time.

I'm not saying you don't know what you are doing... I'm saying you are arguing a point for no other reason than because you want to be right. Show me any reliability reports that put any of the big three over top of Asian cars. Please. Prove me wrong. Show me how import cars are "Cheap junk". And I don't want some muscle car forum, with a bunch of rednecks who just say they are because that's what their Daddy said.

 

[tjkj2002]

I see... so in this statement, you continue to bash Imports with no evidence or citations, as well as forbidding consumer report sites from being used as informative sources... because there is some big conspiracy against the Detroit big three.

OK.

Well, let's do this right.

To start off, give yourself a base knowledge in what we are talking about. It's not hard. Here, I'll give you an article that compares the financial status of Our big three to Toyota and Honda.

http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2008/12/17/18555247.php

Companies like Peugeot Aren't mentioned, and for good reason. Quite frankly, they are too small. It would be like comparing McDonalds and Burger King to a family run hot-dog stand.


Now. To the reliability issue. Here's the CNN website... Stating that Asian cars are more reliable on a whole than domestic.


http://money.cnn.com/2006/11/08/autos/cr_most_reliable/index.htm

Here is a direct quote from the above CNN article. "The owner of the M-class is likely to experience 10 times as many problems as the owner the Highlander Hybrid, the magazine said." Please, tell me where you are getting that imports have more problems. Show me any facts that support your statement.

Here's FORBES Magazine. It explains how Domestic Vehicles just don't stand up to Imports when it comes to build quality and reliability,

http://www.forbes.com/vehicles/2006/04/20/reliable-vehicles-japanese_cx_dl_0424feat.html

And finally, Here's the JD Powers and Assoc. Website... It shows that Imports are among the most reliable vehicles... And also shows some of the more luxurious Domestic cars as being up there in reliability, So that should dispel your Idea that it is paid to say that American cars are less reliable. Which is ridiculous anyway.

http://www.jdpower.com/autos/rating...rand/sortcolumn-1/ascending/page-#page-anchor


All in all, I think these sources are far more believable than "Years of wrench turning". Even if you don't realize it... You have a major bias against imports... and that is clouding your judgment big-time.

I'm not saying you don't know what you are doing... I'm saying you are arguing a point for no other reason than because you want to be right. Show me any reliability reports that put any of the big three over top of Asian cars. Please. Prove me wrong. Show me how import cars are "Cheap junk". And I don't want some muscle car forum, with a bunch of rednecks who just say they are because that's what their Daddy said.

My case has been spoken with your own post,in bold(guess you don't relize both of those are imports).

 

[Robocody]

Your case hasn't been spoken at all... It has been driven into the ground. With several different sources I have proven Asian imports to be superior overall in reliability. The only domestics that come close are the ranger and the crown vic... and of course their mazda and mercury counterparts.


Even the part you highlighted in bold speaks well for the reliability of Toyota... The car you call cheap junk. I was comparing a TOYOTA to a different make of car, and it is the most reliable. You are wrong.

Would you like to get on to actually making sense with your arguments? Or are you content with just lashing out at a single detail that you don't understand, because it has been altogether proven that you are wrong?

 

[ATXKJ]

Actually the best discussion of the Japanese auto industry is a book
The Machine that changed the world
http://www.amazon.com/Machine-That-Changed-World-Production/dp/0060974176

it's based on a 5 year MIT study of the auto industry.

and FYI - the 'Consumer Reports' data is a survey - they send it out to all their readers and all they do is crunch the numbers - it's biased toward Consumer Reports readers, not to the manufacturers.