Dexron and transmission delay

[Kevin.G]

Well, having read extensively about Lubeguard, it does appear impressive. But quite rightly, as mentioned by 24turbo earlier, re-learning might just be the solution. Unfortunately this shop which I used seems unable to progress beyond the general re-learning procedure. Maybe he can produce a detailed diagnostic report then I can take the car to a reputable transmission works for the comprehensive learning procedure.

Only problem is the closest transmission experts are 650km from me. Not sure if I can take the chance to drive that far with the box as is?

 

[Kevin.G]

Lubeguard products are available in SA, I just need to weigh up the pro's and con's to adding to Dexron 6.

 

[eric1514]

Or if your new pan comes with a drain plug, you can remove at least 1/3 of the dextron and replace it with ATF +4. Do this every couple of weeks or whenever the stuff goes on sale and you’ll soon have close to 100% good stuff in your ******.

 

[24turbo]

What year is the transmission that you installed? If it was 2007+ it is a VLP which is not a direct interchange. Low line pressure at idle (hot) seems like your most logical cause and this is all I can come up with.

I’ve tried to figure out your problem but it doesn’t make sense to me. I’m not convinced changing the fluid is going to help ( but it still may cause shifting issues).

If the shop just did a quick learn it still shouldn’t be doing what you are describing so I’m not sure that a better scanner going to get you anywhere. My understanding is the only way to get a full relearn and diagnostics is with a Mopar oem dealer tool. Most all aftermarket scanners do a “quick learn” which is usually adequate. Wrong year is the best I’ve come up with so far…..

 

[Kevin.G]

Thanks once again. The box and case are from an '03 model. But having done some additional digging, I am also beginning to doubt the learning theory. I have the car booked for a recall on the rear lower control arms at the end of May, so maybe I will ask the agents to have a look at a full diagnostic/re-learn. Although, from past experience in SA I know that Jeep are reluctant to even look at any work carried out by a non-Jeep agent, so let's see how far I get with that one.

Your post has however prompted me to relook at the transfer case problem which I have where I am not able to engage 4Hi. So, it turns out that the transfer case which came with the transmission swap is a 231, and guess what, mine is a 242!!! Problem solved. Except now I need to sort out my original case which seemed to be working perfectly. The only reason the shop went with the 231 case is that it was already on the transmission, but of course they never checked, and I blindly accepted their advice to do the swap. The other reason was the state of the nagnet, as well as the slackness in the chain. I am very tempted to just fit a new chain (maybe), clean and fill her with new fluid and fit her back. The pics attached show the current condition of chain and magnet. Any advice or comments from the experts?

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[24turbo]

A few questions-

You know for sure the transmission worked fine before it was removed? Did you have any history with this vehicle to know any of its quirks?

You say when the transmission is hot it is slow to go into reverse or drive correct? But cold it is fine.

Is it only when you first select drive or reverse-or If you select reverse and feel it engage and go immediately to drive is it still slow engaging in drive or vice versa?

Does it engage faster if you are revving it slightly?

Does it engage in drive faster if you immediately set the shifter to low, not drive?

My best guess at this point is either a leaking accumulator or the low/reverse piston leaking-but much worse when hot. Both are known weak points-although the 42rle is really a poorly built and engineered piece


As for your transfer case I would change input and output bearings also along with the chain and anything else you see once disassembled. Your magnet looks crappy but you would be surprised how much accumulates on them. The big indicator is how big are the pieces. Slight sliver are ok but if there is anything bigger you may have something piled up.

 

[Kevin.G]

Thanks once again, to answer the questions;

I have no history at all on the 2nd transmission, and only have the workshop technicians word to go on that it was a good box. The reason for the vehicle standing was a blown motor.

How the gears perform when engaging as you have asked, I will check this on my next outing and revert back with the results.

Just some feedback on the additive issue as discussed in earlier posts, I have spoken with an oil company engineer specializing in lubricants and his reply (for info purposes) is as follows:

ATF 6 (Dexron VI) and ATF +4 is not interchangeable. ATF 6 is GM OEM and ATF +4 is Chrysler OEM.

The specification on the 42RLE is MS-9602. The Chrysler MS-9602 is the official spec for ATF +4.

I would not recommend an additive. The additive Lubeguard Platinum is to boost performance of the already correct product used and not to reform one product to another.

Please note that the additives used in the ATF 6 and ATF +4 are very different. The friction modifiers used are not the same and if you add another additive to that, that may/can result in foaming (two additives working against each other), which then creates pitting, etc.

The same applies when topping up the one ATF with another. They use two different friction modifier systems. Over time the product can gel or it can foam when mixed. So, with use the two systems might work against each other.

 

[Steve1951]

Thank you so much for all the advice. it really is a problem living out in the middle of nowhere and being at the mercy of those "in the know". I will see if I can get the workshop to drain, flush and refill the box with correct ATF+4 then give feedback on whether this sorted the delay problem. While they are about it they will have to attend to the 4WD selection which is not engaging 4H, they can't seem to get that right either.

 

[Shankster]

That seems like great info from the lube Engineer. Just confirms that no matter what is happening with your shifting issues you need to get that Mercon out of there right now. That would be #1 priority for me and hopefully it fixes your issues - if not then you go to the next troubleshooting step.

I would still try to reach out to Jeep / Mopar and get something in writing from them re suitability of the Mercon. Then keep all your receipts and documentation and go after the shop that did the work to pay for the fixes. As I mentioned, I would take them to small claims court for that if such a thing exists in SA - no need to hire a lawyer - you present the evidence and get a payment from the shop assuming the Judge agrees. This shop needs to be taught a lesson, or else they'll do it again to the next guy or gal who brings their Mopar in for service.

 

[Kevin.G]

So the plot thickens.....

Not only is the shop refusing to change the fluid in the transmission, it turns out they actually fitted an NV231 transfer case instead of an NV242 case - no wonder they couldn't get the gears to engage! Eventually once they discovered their blunder, I find that they have already stripped my original case which was working fine, and now needed new spares to fit it back together which is easier said than done in my part of the world. So, after much frustration, I have located the parts at a crazy price, only to find the mechanic in the interim has sold the business and disappeared!!! Rumor has it that he has left for Canada, and I'm left holding the baby...!

 

[Shankster]

That really ***** Kevin. I think you still need to prioritize getting the Mercon out of there and the transmission filled with AT+4. Hopefully you're not still driving it with the Mercon in there?

The transfer case seems like a less urgent issue. Good used transfer cases for the Liberty are readily available in the US for cheap but I'm sure shipping cost to SA would be frightening - might be worth getting on Ebay US though and see if anyone would ship you one and for how much.

Or could you just swap out your NV242 (Select Trac) compatible shifter with a NV231 (Command Trac) compatible shifter? I'm wondering if you can't get into 4HI because your shift lever is not compatible with the transfer case? I'm out of my depth and guessing here but I can't imagine a shift lever with 5 detents (NV242) would work with a transfer case that normally has a shift lever with 4 detents (NV231). I'd think a used NV231 shifter and cable assembly could be found for a reasonable price and the shipping from the US wouldn't be nearly as outrageous as a transfer case. I don't know if you ever drive in snow and ice but that seems like the only time a NV242 is better than a NV231.

 

[Kevin.G]

Thanks Shankster, I am still driving with the Mercon fluid unfortunately. I don't have the facility to flush the Mercon out properly, unless someone has a step by step DIY type approach I could follow other than just continuously replacing fluid in the hopes that the Mercon will eventually be diluted enough to become insignificant.

You are quite correct about the shipping costs to SA, but I have found an importer of used "low mileage" boxes and cases into SA from Dubai. I may just give them a try. I must admit I never thought of perhaps just changing the lever assembly, although I do really enjoy the added features of the 242 case.

Just a further development to note: During this entire process, the diff was also changed and I have now noticed on the open road what sound like a diff hum when navigating a left hand bend, but dead quiet in a right hand bend. ???

 

[Shankster]

Thanks Shankster, I am still driving with the Mercon fluid unfortunately. I don't have the facility to flush the Mercon out properly, unless someone has a step by step DIY type approach I could follow other than just continuously replacing fluid in the hopes that the Mercon will eventually be diluted enough to become insignificant.

The drain/fill, drain/fill, drain/fill approach will be tedious and expensive, but not nearly as expensive as replacing your transmission again - you really need to get the fluid ordered and just do it before it's too late. A cheap fluid pump attached to a long piece of tubing inserted into the dipstick tube would make it a lot easier. Or drop the pan once and install an aftermarket drain plug. I would also replace the filters on one of your later drain/fills just in case mixing the different fluids creates a filter plugging sludge.

 

[Kevin.G]

The drain/fill, drain/fill, drain/fill approach will be tedious and expensive, but not nearly as expensive as replacing your transmission again - you really need to get the fluid ordered and just do it before it's too late. A cheap fluid pump attached to a long piece of tubing inserted into the dipstick tube would make it a lot easier. Or drop the pan once and install an aftermarket drain plug. I would also replace the filters on one of your later drain/fills just in case mixing the different fluids creates a filter plugging sludge.

Agreed. Any ideas on the diff hum?

 

[Shankster]

Agreed. Any ideas on the diff hum?

Hopefully it's just the new diff breaking in? Since you probably want to change the fluid after break in (1000 miles??) you'll be able to look things over when you have the diff cover off. Maybe get some gear marking compound and check that the pattern on the ring gear is good? If not you can buy a cheap Chinese dial indicator and measure the backlash. If adjustment is needed (and you have the Chrysler 8.25) you can build a tool out of steel pipe fittings for cheap. Hopefully the diff bearings are good - I'm not sure how you could check those - spin each wheel with the diff cover off and listen for bearing noise?? I suppose it could also be an outer axle bearing - spin the wheels when off the ground and listen for noise there? Or remove the axles (or maybe just the right one) and check the bearing and seal?

 

[Kevin.G]

Thanks for the ideas, really appreciated.

 

[Kevin.G]

A few questions-

You know for sure the transmission worked fine before it was removed? Did you have any history with this vehicle to know any of its quirks?

You say when the transmission is hot it is slow to go into reverse or drive correct? But cold it is fine.

Is it only when you first select drive or reverse-or If you select reverse and feel it engage and go immediately to drive is it still slow engaging in drive or vice versa?

Does it engage faster if you are revving it slightly?

Does it engage in drive faster if you immediately set the shifter to low, not drive?

My best guess at this point is either a leaking accumulator or the low/reverse piston leaking-but much worse when hot. Both are known weak points-although the 42rle is really a poorly built and engineered piece


As for your transfer case I would change input and output bearings also along with the chain and anything else you see once disassembled. Your magnet looks crappy but you would be surprised how much accumulates on them. The big indicator is how big are the pieces. Slight sliver are ok but if there is anything bigger you may have something piled up.

Finally managed to get some time to answer this one after a battery replacement and a drive belt tensioner pulley failure.

I have no history with the other vehicle so no idea on the state of the gearbox before the swap, except what the mechanic has related to me, which with time has proven to be unreliable.

I can confirm when the transmission is hot it is slow to go into reverse or drive, But cold it is fine.

Once hot, this issue persists even when I going immediately to drive from reverse and vice versa?

When revving slightly, like around 1,500 RPM the delay disappears.

There is no difference at idle and hot if I immediately set the shifter to low, not drive?

Note that the Mercon oil has not being flushed out and changed yet.

I hope this clarifies and will help with any suggestions.

As for the transfer case, that issue seems to be heading to court at the moment along with the incorrect oil problem.

 

[Shankster]

You can't diagnose any issues with the transmission internals until you get the Mercon out and AT+4 in since we don't know what issues the Mercon is causing. I'm perplexed at why you haven't done that yet - you could be doing permanent damage by driving it with the Mercon. As an example, Mercon (in place of the proper fluid) is known to destroy a Ford CVT in 1000 miles - I'm sure the risk is less in this case but it's still there.