Odd Drivetrain Noise/Tire Wear

[retmil46]

Here's the scenario -

2005 KJ Sport CRD 4WD, 58K miles and change. At 52K miles prior to a trip to NC in Jan this year, no noticeable wear on tires - Cooper Discoverer ATR 245/70/16, installed at 25K miles.

Early Feb, starting noticing an unusual noise that could have been either from the tires or the drivetrain, and an occasional soft "pop" from the front end when straightening out the front tires after making close to a 90 degree turn either direction onto a side street on the commute to work. Drivetrain/tire noise was only noticeable at speeds above 45 mph, and most noticeable above 50 mph when the torque converter was locked up.

Feb 10th, 55,500 miles, had a local shop which HAD been quite good on previous visits, check both the suspension and front alignment. they reported no problems found.

April 5th, 56,900 miles, had the TX state inspection done and tires balanced and rotated by the same shop. Again, they reported no problems found.

This past Sunday. around 58,300 miles, while laying under the drivers rear of the vehicle to examine the fuel filler tube, I noticed some significant wear on the outside edge of that tire. I checked the passenger side rear, and noticed the same wear - these were the tires that had been on the front of the vehicle until a month and 1500 miles ago. Checking the tires that are now on the front, they were starting to exhibit the same wear pattern after 1500 miles.

And we're not just talking wearing down the outside tread - in some places, it looked as if the rubber was actually being melted and folded over into some of the smaller lateral grooves. And small chunks approx 1/8 inch square were being broken out of the very edge of the tread.

I've noticed three consistent conditions with the "noise" - 1 - readily apparent at speeds above 50 mph when the torque converter is locked up. 2 - only noticeable when the drivetrain is under load, such as going uphill or accelerating - let off the throttle, and it disappears. 3 - when the noise is present, it changes in tone and volume when the front wheels are turned to negotiate a curve at speed during interstate driving.

One other item to note, which may be a separate issue - on two occasions when the ABS should have been active - once in Feb on an ice covered road, and recently having to do a near-panic stop when cut off in traffic - there was a "grinding" noise that apparently came from the drivers front wheel, as if it had locked up and slid along the pavement - but no ABS warning light or trouble codes.

Suspension is still stock, original shocks/struts, only mod was the installation of Moog greaseable lower ball joints over 3 years ago on my own dime in preference to letting the stealership install their cheap idea of LBJ's for their recall. Original brake pads as well, rotors still in good shape and plenty of meat left on the pads.

After checking around, this coming Monday I'll be taking it to a different shop that has an excellent local rep for doing front end alignments. Depending on what they find, my next planned step is to remove the front driveshaft between the transfer case and front diff - both to have it checked out in shop as far as it's condition, and see if the "noise" is still present when driving.

Any thoughts or opinions on what the likely culprit is?

 

[rockymountain]

you said they checked the alignment? Did they align it? Sounds like you have an awful alignment or something is worn out like tie rod ends perhaps. Get the alignment done and ask for a paper to bring with you so you can look at the before and after specs.

 

[retmil46]

you said they checked the alignment? Did they align it? Sounds like you have an awful alignment or something is worn out like tie rod ends perhaps. Get the alignment done and ask for a paper to bring with you so you can look at the before and after specs.

Yep, first shop claims they checked the alignment AND suspension and didn't find any problems - no charge - but then they didn't provide any paper showing that they HAD checked the alignment, ie, what the actual specs were.

Obviously, from the condition of my tires, I'm calling Bravo Sierra on THAT evaluation.

 

[retmil46]

Well, got the alignment done this past Monday at the second shop - this guy was a true mechanic - spent 10 minutes just listening to my history of what I'd seen with the vehicle - then takes it out for a 10 to 15 minute test drive BEFORE pulling it back in over the alignment pit.

About a half-hour later, he comes back into the office. The first words out of his mouth are "That other shop may have CHECKED the alignment, but they sure as hell didn't ADJUST anything. That thing was WAY off!". He went on to mention that everything else - tie rods, ball joints, etc - were nice and tight - just the adjustment was off.

Beast drives like new again. But.....

I've still got that same odd noise at highway speeds, with the same symptoms.

Last night, just to get it checked out and see if it needs replacement, and also to attempt to eliminate the front drivetrain as the culprit, I pulled the front driveshaft between the transfer case and front diff.

No difference whatsoever on the drive home from work.

That to me is pointing to something with the rear diff, or because of the abuse they went thru with the bad alignment and the way they're worn, it's actually tire noise and I need to pop for a new set of tires.

FWIW, a friend did a google search and found in the past few years this particular tire manufacturer has settled multiple lawsuits - 2002, 2005, 2007, 2009 - for tread and sidewall separation.

Could be the bad alignment started these tires on a downhill slide that's not going to get any better.

 

[J-Thompson]

you probably have bad shocks/springs
replace both and realign
if you have not noticed most of the users on this board replace shocks/springs at about 35-40K miles
The alignment caused the tire wear
you very well could have a bad tire
but tires dont cause popping and banging

 

[67Customs]

or because of the abuse they went thru with the bad alignment and the way they're worn, it's actually tire noise and I need to pop for a new set of tires.

Could be the bad alignment started these tires on a downhill slide that's not going to get any better.

This was going to be my suggestion. The improper alignment has made the tires wear abnormally and I have heard some horrible noise out our oddly worn tires.

I had a MK4 Jetta with a bent rear beam and it made the tires wear abnormally. They started sounding like a bad bearing. The sound changed with speed, got worse, etc...

There is a chance that running them with the correct alignment may eventually wear them back to nromal, but they could be to far gone and it might take a while even if you could. You would probably have to deal with the noise for a while if that is the case.

 

[retmil46]

you probably have bad shocks/springs
replace both and realign
if you have not noticed most of the users on this board replace shocks/springs at about 35-40K miles
The alignment caused the tire wear
you very well could have a bad tire
but tires dont cause popping and banging

Believe it or not, I found the cause of the popping/banging, and it wasn't bad shocks.......

Somewhere, sometime, somehow, someone had dropped a putty knife when working on the beast, such that it was nestled in the ledge just in front of the radiator. When I'd go around a corner fast enough, and depending on whether it was the plastic handle, or the metal blade, that hit against the frame, you would either get a muffled pop or a sharp bang.

And no, I checked and all my putty knives are still in my toolbox, different brand at that.

Go figure.:shrug:

 

[LibertyTC]

Wow!

Now that is something!
:shakehead: Nothing like finding...:Whoa: free tools!

 

[retmil46]

This was going to be my suggestion. The improper alignment has made the tires wear abnormally and I have heard some horrible noise out our oddly worn tires.

I had a MK4 Jetta with a bent rear beam and it made the tires wear abnormally. They started sounding like a bad bearing. The sound changed with speed, got worse, etc...

There is a chance that running them with the correct alignment may eventually wear them back to nromal, but they could be to far gone and it might take a while even if you could. You would probably have to deal with the noise for a while if that is the case.

Well, I've got an idea along that line.

Yesterday I went to a driveline specialist shop, recommended by the same differential shop that turned me on to the second alignment place - actually their sister company originally started by the same owner.

To eliminate the tires as the cause of the problem, he recommended a place called Southwest Brake and Alignment. He said they can actually perform "tire truing" and balancing with the wheels still on the vehicle.

I actually found an article online by Four Wheeler magazine on this same place, describing the process. They jack the wheeels up off the ground, then use a machine to rotate the tire and measure the areas where it's out of round, which then shaves off rubber from the tire to make it round and "true". Second part of the process the same machine spins up the wheel to speed for dynamic balancing.

Only drawback stated was that you wouldn't be able to do a normal tire rotation every XXXXX miles, or you'd have to do the whole process over again.

Might be worth a shot, to at least let them diagnose the tires and see if they're the cause of the problem. Worst they can tell me is the tires are too old/worn/in too bad a shape to do anything with, and I just need to buy 4 new tires.

 

[LibertyTC]

TRY Dyna Beads?
http://www.innovativebalancing.com/

 

[retmil46]

Same gent at the driveline specialist shop gave me two or three tips for eliminating the rear driveshaft/******/differential as the cause of the noise.

First, with the parking brake on and the ****** in neutral, rev up the engine to around 2000 rpm or the engine rpm that corresponds to the road speed where you're hearing the noise. If you don't hear anything out of the ordinary, you can pretty well rule out problems with the torque converter or ****** internals as the problem.

Second, again with the parking brake on and ****** in neutral to unload the suspension, crawl up underneath and grab ahold of the output shaft from the transfer case, on the part with the rubber boot in front of the harmonic balancer, and pull up and down on it. He said if you get any kind of detectable play or movement, most likely you need to have the seal/bearing for the output shaft replaced.

Third, jack up the rear of the vehicle and put the rear axle on jackstands, then put it in gear and rev up the drivetrain to the indicated speed where you're hearing the noise. If the noise isn't there any more, that's a strong indicator the problem is with the tires themselves. It also gives a second person a chance to examine what's going on with the rear driveshaft while it's rotating at speed and see if there's any problems in that area.

In my case, test # 1 came up negative - no noise or problems.

Test # 2, I couldn't get any play on the output shaft, even pulling on it hard enough to move the transfer case. But when I tried the same thing grabbing onto the harmonic balancer itself, I got detectable movement and a definite "clunk-clunk" as it rocked back and forth on the splines from the output shaft. I'll ask him Monday to check this himself and see if it's a problem.

Test # 3, I'll have to wait until I can buy a set of jackstands or check with some local friends to see if they have a set I can use for the test.

As far as the front driveshaft - as soon as he saw me walking in the front door with it in my hand, he said "Let me guess - Jeep Grand Cherokee?". I said close, Jeep Liberty diesel. He examined it and came to pretty much the same conclusion I had - the front or differential side CV joint was stiff and dried out, and it needed replacement anyway, regardless of the fact it wasn't the cause of the original noise problem. His replacement solution was the same I've seen advertised on a custom driveshaft website - replace the Chrysler setup with a double cardan unit, which was what I already had in mind.

 

[retmil46]

Well, this *****.:disgust:

I took a closer look at my tires yesterday, and I'm thinking it'd be a waste of time trying to get them trued and rebalanced, that regardless if they're causing the noise or not, I'm still going to end up needing 4 new tires.

Basically, it looks as if they got overheated by running with the alignment that far out, and the rubber in the tread section has been baked to the point it's hard as a brick.

Just laying my hand on any of the four tires, it''ll come away black with rubber dust - same consistency as if you ran your finger over a car that hadn't been washed in a while, and the end of your finger was coated with dirt - just from touching the tread.

The tires on the back, which got the majority of the abuse before being rotated to the back, look to still be losing small chunks of the tread from both sides of the tire now.

If you look down inside the grooves on the tread, around the base of the individual rubber blocks that form the tread, you can see multiple cracks running around the base of all the rubber blocks - this condition is common to all four tires.

In addition, all four tires have developed a hairline sidewall crack, about a 1/2" away from the rim, running completely around the circumference.

My gut feeling is I'd be wasting my time trying to salvage these tires - that most likely if they put them on that truing machine and tried to shave them back into round, the tread would just crumble or break off - then I'd be stuck having to buy 4 new tires on the spot at whatever prices that alignment shop charged.

And as hard as the rubber has become, I don't think these tires are going to wear back into round - if anything, the noise is becoming more noticeable - Friday night coming back from work, I was starting to get the same noise, at a lower frequency, at speeds of 35 to 45 mph.

At that, I'm not even sure they're really out of round - no vibration whatsoever, not in the ride of the vehicle, in the steering wheel, or the driveline that I can detect - that you would expect from a tire that was out of round or even out of balance. I've driven vehicles that had one or more tires out of round or out of balance before, and you could definitely FEEL that something was out of sorts.

So far, I've had the alignment redone - great improvement in the way the vehcile handles and drives, but no change in noise - pulled the front driveshaft - that needs to be replaced, but again, no change in the noise - and I've done every check except the jackstand test, recommended by the gent at the driveline specialist shop - tests were negative as far as any problems, but I've still got the noise.

Given all those checks, and the condition of the tires, I'd say it's at least a 75% probability at this point the tires are the culprit.

Bloody shame, these Cooper Discoverer ATR's have been good tires up to this point. 34K miles on them, and even with only a 500AB rating and 50K tread life warranty, they still have gobs of tread left on them. Perhaps if it hadn't been for the abuse they went thru with the bad alignment, they might well have lasted another 20K or 30K miles - but even with plenty of tread left, they're giving these other indications that they've been pushed too far and need to be replaced.

 

[J-Thompson]

Believe it or not, I found the cause of the popping/banging, and it wasn't bad shocks.......

Somewhere, sometime, somehow, someone had dropped a putty knife when working on the beast, such that it was nestled in the ledge just in front of the radiator. When I'd go around a corner fast enough, and depending on whether it was the plastic handle, or the metal blade, that hit against the frame, you would either get a muffled pop or a sharp bang.

And no, I checked and all my putty knives are still in my toolbox, different brand at that.

Go figure.:shrug:

you have close to 60K on the OE shocks?
they are bad
trust me and many many others who will tell you the same
oh and keep your post shorter I dont like to read

 

[67Customs]

oh and keep your post shorter I dont like to read

What is the point of going onto a internet forum if you don't like to read? :happy175:

I don't mind long posts if there is substance.

 

[retmil46]

Well, here's an update on what's happened -

I measured the tread depth on the Coopers and they were slightly past the halfway point - less than 6/32's left - given that and the overall condition of the two that had seen the most abuse, I decided it was pointless trying to get them trued and dynamic balanced - any "shaving" and I would have been at minimum depth.

Ended up going with a set of Michelin LTX MS2's, 245/70/16. Good tires, BAD choice I made in the shop to put them on - a certain chain store with the initials DT. Didn't bother cleaning any of the loose road dirt/grease out of the rims (had to do that myself before the first revisit) before balancing, slopped tire soap/bead lubricant all over the tires and rims (and probably inside the tire as well) and didn't clean that off either, and after 3 tries with a Hunter ground force balancer they still couldn't balance the tires worth a darn. Front tires were so far out after they initially mounted them at 60 to 70 mph the steering wheel visibly shook and vibrated like a joy buzzer. First revisit they admitted they'd effed the balance on the front tires, and that knocked the vibration down by about half, but they didn't manage to do any better after that.

Ended up going to a Firestone dealer with the same Hunter ground force machine. Half an hour, they had them balanced and running smooth. Their tech, who has many years experience working for Chrysler, Goodyear, and now Firestone, said the weights on all four wheels were off by anywhere from 1/2 to 1 ounce.

I've found a litany of complaints from the San Antonio area regarding this particular chain of stores and their apparent inability to balance tires - some people saying that even Walmart did a better job of balancing their tires afterwards.

Recommendations I got locally for tire balancing were almost unanimous - go to a Firestone dealer if you're in the SA area. Nearly all of their locations are listed as having a Hunter ground force balancing machine.

As far as the noise - new tires seem to have muffled the volume, but it's still there under the same conditions. Doing the checks listed in the FSM, this seems to point towards the rear driveshaft/differential - rear pinion seal has started weeping oil over the past 2 or 3 months, and this same seal had to be replaced within six months of buying the vehicle new because it failed altogether, replaced under warranty at the dealership - or as a friend in Charlotte has pointed out, another possibility is that the balljoint on the rear upper suspension arm, that connects to the diff, may have collapsed - he says he's seeing reports from some people reporting similar symptoms, getting audible rear driveline noise inside the cab at highway speeds, and the cause turned out to be this balljoint going bad and transmitting this driveline noise to the body of the vehicle.

Offhand, it seems to me if it was just the rear driveshaft/diff on their own causing this amount of noise, I'd be getting some amount of vibration as well - but nada, just noise. That lends some credence to the balljoint/rear upper arm theory.

An aside - just what is it with Chrysler and ball joints?:shrug:

 

[LibertyTC]

Not only Ball Joints problematic but also most of the bushings.
At highway speed remove back off completely on gas. If it moves left or right you can also have the rear lower control arm bushing problem.The rear lower control arm bushings should be inspected by removing the arms and looking for cracks from bolt hole or the relief cutaway on axle side bushings. If there are no cracks, fill the slots(reliefs) in with windshield Urethane, allow to dry 48 hours and re-install.
The tri-link bushings and ball joint can also become fairly loose and may require replacement.
One thing is for sure, after a few years your stock shocks and springs are bagged.
Wheel balancing should be done once a year with a wheel alignment, or any time you hit a curb. I got to find out how out of round my rim was and wheel balancing get's it back to good again... some times.

 

[retmil46]

Not only Ball Joints problematic but also most of the bushings.
At highway speed remove back off completely on gas. If it moves left or right you can also have the rear lower control arm bushing problem.The rear lower control arm bushings should be inspected by removing the arms and looking for cracks from bolt hole or the relief cutaway on axle side bushings. If there are no cracks, fill the slots(reliefs) in with windshield Urethane, allow to dry 48 hours and re-install.
The tri-link bushings and ball joint can also become fairly loose and may require replacement.
One thing is for sure, after a few years your stock shocks and springs are bagged.
Wheel balancing should be done once a year with a wheel alignment, or any time you hit a curb. I got to find out how out of round my rim was and wheel balancing get's it back to good again... some times.

Did the checks in the FSM to narrow down the cause of the noise - goes away when you're at speed and back off the throttle, or even when on a downgrade - ie, when you unload the rear drivetrain - all indications pointing to the rear diff. No sideways movement though.

But no vibration whatsoever. If everything else was in order, and that diff was in bad enough shape to be making that noise audible on it's own, you'd think that it'd be vibrating like a blender. I've driven vehicles before that had something out of kilter on the driveshaft or rear diff, and you could tell without a doubt that something was FUBAR. That's making me think it's a sound isolation problem - ie, rear suspension balljoint/bushings.

I am going to replace the shocks and struts. Ordered two Monroe quickstrut assemblies for the front and two rear shocks off one of their website's online retailers, having a Memorial Day sale, for $360, shipped yesterday. Already scheduled next Wednesday to take it in, same mechanic that 3 weeks ago corrected the front end alignment in a half hour that the other shop missed, to have them installed and also redo the front end alignment after replacement.

I realize that Monroes may not be the popular choice, but in 30 some years of driving I've had Monroe shocks on all of my vehicles at one time or another and never been disappointed. This being my daily driver and seeing all highway use right now, I'm looking for reliability and not ultimate performance, for right now I'll stick with what works from past experience.

While he's at it, I'll have him check out the rear suspension, at least as far as the ball joint and bushings. He checked out the front suspension when he did the alignment, and said that everything else - ball joints, tie rods, etc - were nice and tight. I replaced the front LBJ's with greaseable Moogs on my own dime when DC came out with the second recall on these.

I appreciate the tip on the windshield sealer fix, but this being my only vehicle at present, I'm limited on downtime - if there's a problem with the bushings or balljoint, it'll be straight out replacement.

 

[retmil46]

Well, finally found out what was causing the drivetrain noise.

Replacing the shocks all around and the rear upper suspension arm muffled the noise, but it didn't go away. Balljoint on the suspension arm was shot - you could move it around with one finger. New quickstrut assemblies on the front gained back at least 1/2" in ride height, and both sides are at the same height - drivers side had been sitting noticeably lower since bought new.

Also had the brakes done, as the rear pads were getting close - all four rotors turned and Bendix ceramics installed - again, no difference in the noise.

Last candidate was the rear diff. As the pinion seal had already been leaking when all this started, ordered a Timken rebuild kit and dropped it off at a local shop this morning to have the pinion seal replaced, and have them go into the diff at the same time to see if anything was out of whack.

Out of whack indeed. Dropped it off when they opened at 9 AM, and at 3 PM got a call from them saying they'd found the cause of the noise - the driver's side carrier bearing was shot. He said that when he got the cover off, the carrier literally fell out into his hands. He said I'd probably brought it in just in time - if I'd driven it any longer in that condition, I'd have started putting significant wear on the gears.

Good news was, that with a good cleanout and the new bearings and seals installed, everything would be set back to rights. He was going to install new axle seals as well - said he did that as SOP when redoing a rear diff - and that he felt the axle bearings should be fine, but gave me the option of going ahead and putting in new ones while we had it open. Given my experience so far with "quality Chrysler parts", I opted to go ahead and put in new Timken axle bearing, just so the bloody thing would be done and put to bed. Along with Amsoil Severe Gear 75W140 oil.

60K miles, never towed anything with it, never off roaded, have changed out the rear diff fluid at no longer than 20K miles at the most (with Amsoil Severe Gear no less) - and yet this bearing was shot, and this is the SECOND pinion seal it's eaten - first was replaced at less than 5K miles under warranty.

My feeling is that the rear diff was never properly set up to begin with, or the dealer tech that replaced the first pinion seal managed to muck things up.