engine noise - 2002 3.7

[Conundrum2006]

Makes some sense as it would be hydraulic in nature, and why it's hard to find. All the the lines can be transmitting the sound as well as the pump.


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[jeeptorino68]

Well I will get a ps pump ordered and try it. Its free (lifetime warranty on the unit i had replaced) so why not. Other than the mess of fluid it makes....

 

[jeeptorino68]

Bump. Any fresh ideas? Changed out the power steering pump no change in noise or symptoms

 

[jeeptorino68]

Can the harmonic balancer make a knocking sound like this?

 

[Conundrum2006]

Maybe. When starting to fail they can make all kinds of noises
Can you get a video of it running. I'm thinking on play back it might show something
I was watching and listening for any weird movement in the last video.

It such a odd sound I really thought it could be the pump.


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[Conundrum2006]

I've searched YouTube trying to find a video with a similar sound, nothing came close.




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[jeeptorino68]

Ok, bypassed the a.c. compressor, and the noise continues.
How can I determine if it is the balancer or water pump?
I don't think it's the alt because the a.c. bypass belt has almost a 180 degree wrap I. The alt pulley so I would expect that to change the noise.
The ps pump and tensioner have been replaced....
What is more likely. Water pump or balancer...???

 

[ltd02]

I thought you said you didn't hear it with the serpentine belt off? Unless I'm having a senior moment, the balancer spins without the belt (it spins the belt). If you didn't hear it with the belt off then I'd be checking the WP.

I recently replaced a tensioner on another vehicle with a Gates and it was crap right out of the box. Sounded just like the one it replaced. Went and got a Motorcraft and been good since.

 

[jeeptorino68]

I thought you said you didn't hear it with the serpentine belt off? Unless I'm having a senior moment, the balancer spins without the belt (it spins the belt). If you didn't hear it with the belt off then I'd be checking the WP.

I recently replaced a tensioner on another vehicle with a Gates and it was crap right out of the box. Sounded just like the one it replaced. Went and got a Motorcraft and been good since.

correct, belt off, no noise, so i guess that rules out the balancer...although there is no tension or side load on it without the belt, could the tension on the balancer cause the noise?
same noise with the OE tensioner, and the Gates. so probably not that.
same noise with or without AC
same noise with the new (rebuilt) PS pump replaced under warranty

unknown on waterpump.
i think unlikely on alternator....

 

[ltd02]

correct, belt off, no noise, so i guess that rules out the balancer...although there is no tension or side load on it without the belt, could the tension on the balancer cause the noise?
same noise with the OE tensioner, and the Gates. so probably not that.
same noise with or without AC
same noise with the new (rebuilt) PS pump replaced under warranty

unknown on waterpump.
i think unlikely on alternator....

Yeah with the alternator right up top it usually is pretty obvious when the bearings start failing. The water pump could be tough to localize. They usually make noise for a bit then catastrophically fail. My WP is still original with 177k. I have a spare in the back just in case. My defective Gates replacement tensioner (different vehicle) sounded just like the bad OE one and the new Motorcraft was silent. So just cause it still sounds the same doesn't mean its not the issue. Now that I think about it I still have the OE tensioner on mine too. I also have a spare in the back.

Also when the alternator bearings start to go you can usually feel it if you spin the pulley by hand. Does the WP pulley wobble if you twist it?

 

[jeeptorino68]

Yeah with the alternator right up top it usually is pretty obvious when the bearings start failing. The water pump could be tough to localize. They usually make noise for a bit then catastrophically fail. My WP is still original with 177k. I have a spare in the back just in case. My defective Gates replacement tensioner (different vehicle) sounded just like the bad OE one and the new Motorcraft was silent. So just cause it still sounds the same doesn't mean its not the issue. Now that I think about it I still have the OE tensioner on mine too. I also have a spare in the back.

Also when the alternator bearings start to go you can usually feel it if you spin the pulley by hand. Does the WP pulley wobble if you twist it?

No wobble in the wp pulley, or the balancer.
Alternator has some light rotational noise, but I don't think it's odd for it's age (when I spin it by hand)

 

[ltd02]

My issue with the OE tensioner was a popping noise as if the spring was toast. Usually only at low RPM. A little throttle and it tightened things up. I was shocked the Gates did the same thing. But again, that was my 98 Ranger.

When my KJ alternator failed 5-6 years ago is went quick and was pretty obvious. I eventually got the battery light and barely made it home one evening. Died about a 1/4 mile from the house. Walked home and got a different battery and swapped it in just to drive it home. When I took the alt off it was grinding when I spun it by hand. New one was very smooth so might be something to at least keep an eye on, especially if it is very old.

 

[ltd02]

Went back and listened to your you tube video again. Definitely a strange noise. I'd swear it was the clutch fan if you didn't already rule that out. Doesn't sound like my bad tensioner or alternator experience either. Not that I would completely ignore the alternator or WP just yet.

If you are sure it isn't the WP (how old is yours?). Then I'd start to wonder about timing chain noise. Maybe the timing chain tensioners are getting weak or the guides are failing. Mine chattered a bit when my secondary tensioners were lazy at low RPM. Don't know what a bad primary would sound like. Maybe a guide is coming undone. I had one fall apart when I was replacing my HGs. The plastic slide area split in two. I think Conundrum had a piece of one in his oil pan. Maybe teejee had TC noise/chatter in his collection.

Did you get the tensioner with two different size pulleys and a new belt? My 02 has the 76/90mm. Newer ones use a 76/76mm. If you get the wrong size and don't get a smaller belt then the belt will be loose and could bottom out the tensioner which would be especially noticeable as the RPMs drop back down after a rev. This may also remove tension from all the components and cause a slipping noise on any pulley offering resistance (WP, PS, etc)

 

[jeeptorino68]

Went back and listened to your you tube video again. Definitely a strange noise. I'd swear it was the clutch fan if you didn't already rule that out. Doesn't sound like my bad tensioner or alternator experience either. Not that I would completely ignore the alternator or WP just yet.

If you are sure it isn't the WP (how old is yours?). Then I'd start to wonder about timing chain noise. Maybe the timing chain tensioners are getting weak or the guides are failing. Mine chattered a bit when my secondary tensioners were lazy at low RPM. Don't know what a bad primary would sound like. Maybe a guide is coming undone. I had one fall apart when I was replacing my HGs. The plastic slide area split in two. I think Conundrum had a piece of one in his oil pan. Maybe teejee had TC noise/chatter in his collection.

Did you get the tensioner with two different size pulleys and a new belt? My 02 has the 76/90mm. Newer ones use a 76/76mm. If you get the wrong size and don't get a smaller belt then the belt will be loose and could bottom out the tensioner which would be especially noticeable as the RPMs drop back down after a rev. This may also remove tension from all the components and cause a slipping noise on any pulley offering resistance (WP, PS, etc)

Thanks for the help on this and taking another look.
Yea not the clutch fan. No idea how old the wp is. I haven't replaced it, so at least 5 years, but I don't think the po replaced it either.
Thinking of picking up a used alternator (35$) just to try. Cheap and the yard I can get them from tests and garuntees them.
Yea the tensioner with 2 size pulleys, it matched the original and I re-use the serp Belt I had on there before

 

[ltd02]

Thanks for the help on this and taking another look.
Yea not the clutch fan. No idea how old the wp is. I haven't replaced it, so at least 5 years, but I don't think the po replaced it either.
Thinking of picking up a used alternator (35$) just to try. Cheap and the yard I can get them from tests and garuntees them.
Yea the tensioner with 2 size pulleys, it matched the original and I re-use the serp Belt I had on there before

Do you know how old the belt is? If it stretched then that could cause some slipping rubbing noises too. If you haven't changed it in the time you've had it I'd replace it anyway.

 

[jeeptorino68]

I think I changed the belt out when I replaced the radiator, about 1 year ago. Gates belt.

 

[Conundrum2006]

Good idea on the alternator. It doesn't sound like a bad alternator but at this point it's all a mystery.

What Itd02 said about the plastic timing guides is right they are easily breakable. Ive seen other motors plastic guides just as bad probably worse.
But even as bad as mine were there was only an occasional rattle at start up, no weird sound like this. And it was a motor with poor oil flow, surprisingly the adjuster seemed in decent working shape, but when those adjusters (like in my f150's 5.4) don't work there is all kinds or rattling and banging. (Btw the ford designed guides and tensioners are rubbish, every guide was broken and they are very long, the 3.7 has a much better design imho + a more stable timing setup.)

Oh, the weird sound I did have was a heater shield like rattling sound. Thought it went away with motor swap , it sort of did, but I found the power steering lines we bumping on the frame occasionally, don't know what held them originally so for now they are zip tied with a something soft insulating it so the ties don't damage them.


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[jeeptorino68]

Ok, well not the alternator, same noise. So I guess I will just replace the water pump.

 

[jeeptorino68]

Water pump was it. Never knew of one to make a noise like that...
PO had put on a reman unit. It was a Chrysler pump, but probably rebuilt with sub standard bearings. Bought a gates, the quality is awesome. The packaging was like no other auto part I have ever bought. Awesome! Gates was 35 dollars from rockauto too. I highly recommend.

Thanks for all your help. Case closed.

 

[Conundrum2006]

Sorry you had to replace it all one by one but glad you found the problem.
I've never heard a sound like that from a water pump. Did it have a metal impeller ?


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