Electrical - Newb, but please hear me out

[know1]

I have already scanned the forum and read many similar accounts, so I'm sorry if this seems repetitive, but I'm hoping the detail I give can pinpoint this before I spend the few dollars I have available.

First, here are the specs:

2003
Jeep Liberty Sport
63k Miles
2nd Owner
Just inspected on 9/8/07
Complete System Flush on 8/13/07
Original Battery & alternator


I have never had any slow starts or any other type of starting issue with my Jeep for the brief period of ownership (about a month) I have experienced so far, but last night my jeep wouldn't start. I had parked in front of an ATM with the radio off, but my phone charger plugged in. It was pretty mild out, around 65f, so it definitely wasn't a cold weather issue. Up to that point is was driving perfect, but when I got back into the car...nothing. No clicking or even any audible noises other than the sound of the key turning the ignition. The strange part was that when the key was one turn back from full ignition, the dashboard lights would come on as if in a stall and the interior lights would come on. I turned the interior dimmer down all the way and unplugged my phone, but still nothing. I also noticed the clock reset, but that might be pretty standard for any type of power issue.

I got a jump from one of those handheld charged units. All my lights were off, including the dash board (lowest setting). My phone charger was physically out of the socket. The radio was off, etc. It turned over and started on the second crank, but then abruptly died after a few revs, when I took my foot off the gas. We tried again, and again it started ok with the charged unit, and this time I kept on the gas hovering around 3k for at least 10 minutes. It finally stayed on with the engine hovering around 750 rpm. It seems very instable and the head lights, when I had the courage to try them, were slightly flickering. The interior lights would phase brighter and back again, which I thought was strange since I set them to the lowest setting.

I took a change and drove since I was right by the highway (which goes to show you my stupid logic). I though a sprint down the road at 75 or so would help recharge my battery. The entire time on the highway, the headlights still flickered, and to make matters worse, the dash board symbols...and I mean ALL of them....would rapidly flicker. I also heard the seatbelt warning tone and some other weird signal noise I've never heard before.

I ended up driving about 8 miles and found a parking lot. I though things should have been fixed, so I turn the engine off. I tried to start it again, but same thing--no sound what so ever. I got another jump, but it promptly died when I took my foot off the gas.

I'm hoping that people with more experience with Jeeps can pinpoint my issue here.

 

[JIMMY JEEP]

Sounds like battery to me but its also worth having the alternator checked to make sure its charging the battery correctly.

 

[MoladoGuy]

I believe there's a dot on top of the battery that will change colors when its bad. You can take a look at that first. To me though it sounds like your alternator is smoked. In my cherokee my alt died on me coming back from a muddin trip. I stopped at the bank about 7 miles from home and jumped back in only to find that it would not turn over. I got a jump and worked my way back home while lights were flickering and chimes were going off. I got a friend to take me over to AutoZone, bought a new alternator, removed the old and installed the new one right there in the driveway and done. That fixed it.

Good luck!!

 

[Marlon_JB2]

Alternator x3!

 

[know1]

I believe there's a dot on top of the battery that will change colors when its bad. You can take a look at that first. To me though it sounds like your alternator is smoked. In my cherokee my alt died on me coming back from a muddin trip. I stopped at the bank about 7 miles from home and jumped back in only to find that it would not turn over. I got a jump and worked my way back home while lights were flickering and chimes were going off. I got a friend to take me over to AutoZone, bought a new alternator, removed the old and installed the new one right there in the driveway and done. That fixed it.

Good luck!!

Is the alternator hard to replace? The belts seem extremely tight. I was wondering how much trouble it would be to get back on if I removed the alternator.

Thanks BTW to both, err, three of you (you beat me to the post) for the quick responses.

 

[Corwyyn]

The belt has a spring-loaded tensioner and is very easy to remove/replace. Not sure about the alternator but from what I've seen when under the hood it looks like maybe a half-hour job.

 

[JIMMY JEEP]

I would still take your battery off first and take it to a battery supplier and get them to test it.I had same symtoms and it turned out to be that the battery wasnt able to hold a charge,only takes 2 mins to remove it and if its the battery at fault you wont have bought a costly alternator for nothing.

 

[Atrus]

If you're adventerous, take off the alternator AND battery and take them to a store such as Autozone. They can check both for you, for free.

 

[2003KJ]

I'm leaning towards battery on this one. Seen this same no start symptoms before on other vehicles, and it was the battery.

You say 4 years on the original, and at 63K as well. The OEM batteries are not known for their length at all (if you get even 3 years out of one you've done very well).

Like JIMMY JEEP mentioned, it sounds as if the battery is unable to hold a charge anymore...probably from a bad cell (or more than one bad cell).

The not holding an idle would be from the battery going completely FLAT, and the computer losing its memory. Until it's been running for a certain amount of time, and able to relearn air/fuel mixture and your driving style, it will stall out. Holding it at a certain RPM for (10 minutes as you say) or driving down the road for x amount of time will allow the computer to relearn the process. So when you do get this straightened out, be aware that the first few stops you make while driving, you might need to do the two foot action (one on the brake and one on the gas to hold it at a steady idle) until it relearns everything.

 

[know1]

I'm leaning towards battery on this one. Seen this same no start symptoms before on other vehicles, and it was the battery.

You say 4 years on the original, and at 63K as well. The OEM batteries are not known for their length at all (if you get even 3 years out of one you've done very well).

Like JIMMY JEEP mentioned, it sounds as if the battery is unable to hold a charge anymore...probably from a bad cell (or more than one bad cell).

The not holding an idle would be from the battery going completely FLAT, and the computer losing its memory. Until it's been running for a certain amount of time, and able to relearn air/fuel mixture and your driving style, it will stall out. Holding it at a certain RPM for (10 minutes as you say) or driving down the road for x amount of time will allow the computer to relearn the process. So when you do get this straightened out, be aware that the first few stops you make while driving, you might need to do the two foot action (one on the brake and one on the gas to hold it at a steady idle) until it relearns everything.

Thanks for the tip. The last thing I did with was moving it after a AAA jump form a commercial parking lot to a street spot. I kept my foot on the gas a brake at the same time--it was a little crazy because the commercial lot was really tight, and I was just about spinning the tires 75% of the time. I was worried my brakes would go too and I was going to smash into a parked car.

In any case, it worked, but when I got to the spot, the car died again the second I let go of the gas.

I thought someone on this forum mentioned that a car with a good alternator should be able to run exclusively off of the alternator once it is jumped. That is why I thought it was the alternator. I also forgot to mention that the battery light to turn on and off pretty randomly. Wouldn't that also mean that the alternator is shot? The AAA guy said that the weird dashboard lights flickering is a sure sign of the alternator. I personally don't have enough experience with auto mechanics.

 

[Marlon_JB2]

The AAA guy said that the weird dashboard lights flickering is a sure sign of the alternator. I personally don't have enough experience with auto mechanics.

NOT NECESSARILY. Weird dashboard lights are just caused by low voltage. There's a lack of power somewhere.

Here's a video of weird dash light action.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-746604498936954336 Low voltage due to dead battery.

 

[JIMMY JEEP]

I still say check the battery first as its the easiest to remove and have checked, and with the symptoms you describe i would start there.All sort of weird and wonderful stuff can happen when the battery hasnt got sufficient juice to power the electrical system. If the battery is tested and turns out that it can hold a charge and deliver the correct volts and amps then move your search too the alternator.Modern cars have complex wiring and many more components than cars of old and place a lot of demand on car batteries.

 

[know1]

NOT NECESSARILY. Weird dashboard lights are just caused by low voltage. There's a lack of power somewhere.

Here's a video of weird dash light action.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-746604498936954336 Low voltage due to dead battery.

That's pretty close to mine, but at points it would flicker so fast it would actually make this subtle vibrating noise--kind of like static.


On a plus note, I just found out that I have a few more days left on my warranty (thought it lapsed already). I'll have them check it out for free. It looks like we have two bets for battery (Jimmy Jeep, 2003KJ) and one for the alternator (Marlon_JBT). Anyone care to wager?

Oh, and thanks to everyone for the suggestions. I was pretty impressed by the level of attention, and no Google link responses. I was about to gut the battery to take it down to Autozone right before the dealer called me back. Part of me still wanted to try a new battery, but I wasn't sure if the dealer would still cover me under warranty if it was in fact the alternator that blew and there was a new battery under the hood.

 

[JIMMY JEEP]

You cant lose then really if youv'e still got your warranty ,you may find they stick an alternator on anyway because they claim the cost back from jeep,either way your on a winner. Hope your mobile again soon.

 

[know1]

And the winner is.........




Dead Battery



Looking back on this, I'm not sure I made the best decision with the warranty service, as I will owe AAA about $60 for the tow ($3 a mile after the initial free 3 miles), and I could possibly have cosmetic damage from the tow. I would also have had my car running yesterday with a brand new battery for less than the tow. I hope the didn't "repair" the old battery or put in a used one. The service at this dealer has been questionable to say the least. They just inspected the vehicle two days before it broke down. They didn't even offer me a tow.

Oh well.

 

[2003KJ]

Possible cosmetic damage due to AAA, and you actually paid them the $60? I would have refused payment PERIOD if there was damage on the vehicle.

 

[Marlon_JB2]

I kinda thought about it and that's when I posted my battery video.

If it was alternator, it would just die and never restart because the alternator never recharged the battery.

 

[Paul M]

When your battery dies the computer gets completely confused upon initial start attempt. (Flashing lights, lots of clikcing, etc.) You have to charge the battery first before startying but should pull the cables off or else the computer won't reset (reboot) properly.

Incidentally, our battery would die after three days of the vehicle sitting (mainly during cold temps). Dealer said "no phantom found". Baloney. Started keeping a jump starter in the back. Pulled the battery cable when leaving the Liberty at the airport. Finally figured it was a faulty factory battery so replaced it only to have the new one die after a cold few nights. Just took the Liberty back to the dealer a second time. They said (I'm still not convinced) the multi-socket 12v plug unit we installed (hardwired) has a light that is drawing 200ma (it's an LED so I find that hard to believe). This "draw" is keeping the main computer module on even after the key is turned off thus allowing amps of phantom draw. OK, so my engineer thinking is this: The outlet in the back is supposedly for small electric coolers which means we have to unplug the thing before leaving the car for a hike or else the mudole will stay on and drain the battery? Sounds fishy to me me because that would defeat the entire purpose of the outlet as well as simply being stupid. If this is the case ANYTHING plugged into the lighter will keep the computer on and drain the battery in a few days. I'm still investigating.

 

[Boiler]

I miss when a bad battery just meant you couldn't start the car, and a bad alternator could be ignored as long as you were charged up and turned off all of your electronics...

 

[diyman]

Happened to me couple of times, it's the battery.

Also, even if apparently electrical systems still have some level of self-protection (regulator..) it may not be all that
advisable to drive on a dead battery, as if it is 'open' and therefore not draining any current, tension may rise up to
17-19 V causing many electronic components to go to hell...
That is, the battery, when working properly, acts like a 'Zener diode' and clips voltage at about 14.4 V.

In Diyman's Humble Opinion (IDHO)