Water Pump Failure

[ebgasolinedream024]

4 year old water pump (New, Mopar) failed abruptly 50 miles from the house. Plastic impeller sheered off which destabilized the water pump which turned the secondary cooling fan into a berserker inside the engine bay which damaged the primary cooling fan and of course chewed up the serpentine belt and overheated the engine. Worst case scenario is 15 minutes before my wife could pull over.

Thanks to all of the great information on this site I'm well aware of the ramifications of overheating this engine.

The failure of the plastic impeller was, shall we say, disappointing.

Any reason I shouldn't go for a metal impeller this time around? I understand the Mopar units are all plastic impellers but given my recent experience I'm, shall we say, "open" to other vendors.

I've done a lot of research into plastic vs metal impellers but have come up short outside of the "OEM uses plastic so use plastic".

There was no visible damage to the timing belt cover from the plastic impeller so that particular design strategy worked as intended. On the other hand maybe a metal impeller wouldn't have come off in the first place...

Any experience with either would be appreciated.

 

[seafish]

Wow…sorry to see the excessive and cascading carnage !!!

Note that the most common STARTING failure point of mechanical water pumps is bearing SEAL failure (ie leakage), leading to actual bearing failure (from grease washout and corrosion) and only then, catastrophic impeller failure from rotational contact with the water pump housing.

NOT saying it cant happen the other way around, but there is generally nothing wrong with modern plastic water pump impellers.

It IS important to note that the weep hole exists on water pumps to allow any coolant from a worn or leaking seal to leak out PAST the bearing, rather then allowing it to immerse the bearing and more quickly wash out the grease, thus even more quickly bringing the bearing to the failure point.


At the point in time that there is bearing failure, impeller damage will occur from impeller to housing contact … even a metal impeller cannot withstand contact with the pump housing for long.

It IS important to find a manufacturer that uses high quality bearings and seals, as opposed to simply finding one that uses a metal impeller.


All that said, it does seem that your Mopar water pump should have lasted longer, unless perhaps the cooling system is contaminated and/or has not been properly flushed in too long. Contaminant particles will definitely wear out water pump seals more quickly.

Also note, that if there is excessive dirt and/or grease and oil buildup on the outside of the water pump, or contaminants inside the cooling system, either of them CAN clog the weep hole and reduce, or even negate, the function and purpose of the weep hole. In fact, there is nothing wrong with seeing small drips of coolant leaking from the weep hole, even though it means eventual replacement will be necessary. In fact, it is a good idea to monitor the water pump weep hole as a matter of course during regular maintenance.


Just my .02

 

[ebgasolinedream024]

Wow…sorry to see the excessive and cascading carnage !!!

Note that the most common failure point of ALL mechanical vehicle water pumps is the bearing SEAL failure (ie leakage) leading to actual bearing failure from corrosion … and ONLY then catastrophic impeller failure from rotational contact with the water pump housing.

NOT saying it cant happen the other way around, but there is generally nothing wrong with modern plastic water pump impellers.

It IS important to note that the weep hole on almost all water pumps is simply to allow any coolant from a worn or leaking seal to leak out PAST the bearing rather then allowing it to immerse the bearing, wash out the grease, and thus even more QUICKLY bring the bearing to the failure point.

Also note that if there is excessive dirt and/or grease and oil buildup on the outside of the water pump, this CAN clog the weep hole and reduce, or even negate, the function and purpose of the weep hole.

At the point in time that there is bearing failure, impeller damage will occur from impeller to housing contact … even a metal impeller cannot withstand contact with the pump housing for long.

It IS important to find a manufacturer that uses high quality bearings and seals, as opposed to simply finding one that uses a metal impeller.

ALSO, There is nothing wrong with seeing some coolant leaking from the weep hole, though it means eventual replacement will be necessary. In fact, it is a good idea to monitor the weep home as a matter of course during regular maintenance.

All that said, it does seem that your Mopar water pump should have lasted longer, unless perhaps the cooling system is contaminated and/or has not been properly flushed in too long. Contaminant particles will definitely wear out water pump seals more quickly.

Just my .02

Thank you very very much . The above really helps. Sounds like the plastic impeller wasn't really the problem here. Thanks !

 

[seafish]

Not sure what year you have but check Rockauto for any premium water pumps…

Just noticed that they are selling a Melling brand water pump. From my time spent on Cummins forums, the scuttlebutt is that Melling at least CLAIMS to make a point of using premium and/or upgraded seals and bearings on their water pumps. Their pumps are more expensive then most of the other aftermarket water pump brands, nut still much less then the Mopar water pump, which would seem to support that claim.

Obviously, this would also be a GREAT time to do a full coolant system clean and flush.

 

[seafish]

All In The Details: A Look At Melling's LS Water Pumps

If your looking for a durable OEM replacement water pump, look no further than Melling. In this article, we take a look at what sets them apart.

www.lsxmag.com

 

[ebgasolinedream024]

Not sure what year you have but check Rockauto for any premium water pumps…

Just noticed that they are selling a Melling brand water pump. From my time spent on Cummins forums, the scuttlebutt is that Melling at least CLAIMS to make a point of using premium and/or upgraded seals and bearings on their water pumps. Their pumps are more expensive then most of the other aftermarket water pump brands, nut still much less then the Mopar water pump, which would seem to support that claim.

Obviously, this would also be a GREAT time to do a full coolant system clean and flush.

I have a 2012 limited with the tow package (tow package added by me all Mopar after reading through this forum in 2020 grabbing the part numbers).

Was looking at Gates. Bought the Gates Micro-V serpentine belt before I figured out the water pump had been compromised.

Looked at Melling. Might consider.

I've had the coolant flushed twice in the last 6 months due to loss of coolant which isn't for this discussion notable. Meaning, I've been losing coolant, it's either going into the engine or it's going into the ground. Enough loss to be noticeable but not enough to be catastrophic and nothing on the floor of the garage. Oil has been fine (no milky substance). Loss was chalked up to flushed but not purged. I am monitoring and checked the oil after this incident and it looks clean.

Got the grill off tonight because why not change out the radiator while I'm at it. Hoping for the best, not concerned if it's the worst (cylinder head seals/head jacked from overheating).

Will post with progress and thank much for the input.

 

[u2slow]

The mechanical fan itself probably contributes to the pump wear/death. That is the case for the Ford 7.3L powerstroke also (there's a cast iron pump from a Navistar application that lasts much better).

My original KJ pump died abruptly. Gushing coolant and failed bearings. It's replacement (very slightly used) was short-lived as I found the shaft wobbling when under the hood for other routine maintenance. Now onto the 3rd pump... a GMB from Amazon. Its outlasted the previous pump anyway.

The way things are made today, imho, can't expect longevity. Better to hone your observational skills and catch issues early.

Edit: as I recall, the pump was rather easy to change on its own. No need to remove the rad.

 

[blackhawk]

4 year old water pump (New, Mopar) failed abruptly 50 miles from the house. Plastic impeller sheered off which destabilized the water pump which turned the secondary cooling fan into a berserker inside the engine bay which damaged the primary cooling fan and of course chewed up the serpentine belt and overheated the engine. Worst case scenario is 15 minutes before my wife could pull over.

Thanks to all of the great information on this site I'm well aware of the ramifications of overheating this engine.

The failure of the plastic impeller was, shall we say, disappointing.

Any reason I shouldn't go for a metal impeller this time around? I understand the Mopar units are all plastic impellers but given my recent experience I'm, shall we say, "open" to other vendors.

I've done a lot of research into plastic vs metal impellers but have come up short outside of the "OEM uses plastic so use plastic".

There was no visible damage to the timing belt cover from the plastic impeller so that particular design strategy worked as intended. On the other hand maybe a metal impeller wouldn't have come off in the first place...

Any experience with either would be appreciated.

Just for my records, could you please tell me how many miles you got after water pumps failure?

 

[ebgasolinedream024]

Update: Got all the parts replaced. Radiator was a PITA. Actually most of the job was a PITA but manageable thanks to YouTube and all the input by community members (this site specifically).

Tip #1: 68084548AA - Lower Radiator Hose Clamp has been discontinued by Mopar. I didn't try and find a replacement clamp since I had kept the ones I took off (and the lower clamp was in good shape).

The Mopar radiator hoses upper and lower come with one clamp each. So, reuse the clamps if you replace the hoses or, if you want to buy a new one for the upper hose that part number is 52029090AA and still available.

The clamp sizes on both ends of the upper radiator hose are the same size.
The clamp sizes on both ends of the lower radiator hose are the same size.

The upper radiator hose and the lower radiator hose take different size clamps.

Tip #2: The clamps on the hoses must be WFO to get the hose onto the outlet at the engine. These pliers: PERFORMANCE TOOL W80656 are garbage. These pliers will not open the clamp enough to get the hose on the outlet. There is another thread on this forum which speaks to this issue (not specifically to the pliers but specifically to the state of the clamp which was absolutely helpful as I was really having a tough time figuring this out). Ended up using vice grips on the clamp to open it up all the way which was a PITA but manageable.

All replacement parts are operating as expected. This part from pigtails.com R54B4 successfully replaced the busted plug for the primary cooling fan.

Engine was misfiring on bank 1 all cylinders and blowing white smoke on startup. Codes a plenty. No heat. Took it to a local shop to get the thermostat and engine coolant sensor replaced. They "said" they couldn't get the bolts of the lower radiator housing to budge told me to pick up the truck so I took the overheating Liberty on a 5 mile journey to a dealership which eventually ended in a tow because the Jeep couldn't make it (Jeep didn't overheat I kept turning it off and ran out of time).

Dealership was able to get the thermostat and engine coolant sensor replaced.

Jeep was still blowing white smoke, overheating and misfiring on bank 1. Got the Jeep home (it was running a bit better with the new thermostat). Added in a bottle of Bar's Leaks Head Seal Blown Head Gasket Repair to the coolant reservoir not expecting miracles.

A week or so later:

No more white smoke.
Engine temperature is steady between 203-207 F while driving. 204F at idle.
Coolant level is stable.
Oil is stable.
Heat is still weak.
Misfire at idle on bank 1 Cylinder 3.
No CEL as of yesterday. I haven't cleared any codes since the water pump malfunctioned.

So looks as if the Liberty is stable enough to use for short trips around town. I've had it out a few times already. I understand that Bar's is considered by some to be a band-aid. In this case it seems Bar's did buy me a few months of usage before I make a decision on whether or not to replace the engine.

 

[ebgasolinedream024]

Just for my records, could you please tell me how many miles you got after water pumps failure?

Liberty was at 178k when I had the new Mopar water pump installed. That pump made it 42k miles. Currently the Jeep is at 218k.

 

[ebgasolinedream024]

Update: The Bar's Leaks Head Seal Blown Head Gasket Repair bought me some time but did not "fix" the head gasket issue. Liberty is still overheating once it reaches standard operating temperature unless I rev the engine at stops. Heat is not working. Cylinder 3 is still misfiring at idle.

The Liberty is ok for short trips around town. And probably longer trips if you don't stop .

I wasn't expecting a miracle from Bar's. Still glad it bought me some time and made the vehicle semi-useable.

Might try some other head gasket repair products and will post if the vehicle status changes.

 

[ebgasolinedream024]

Update: Went ahead and put a round of Irontite Thoroflush through the system after reading positive reviews. The Liberty was still overheating, misfiring on Cylinder 3 and no/weak heat. I made a couple of assumptions based on the symptoms that the Bar's had gummed up the Thermostat and possibly the heater core. So, went with the Irontite product to see if I could flush things out.

The heat is back after running the Thoroflush through the system. I'm getting 120F at the front vents (was 90F). Cylinder 3 also stoppped misfiring during the flush and temperature was steady at 203F.

I have a feeling that the Thoroflush just ungummed the Bar's that was in the system and then the Bar's did what it was supposed to do which was plug up the leak in the head gasket.

For some added insurance I added in the Blue Devil pour-n-go head gasket repair. That product specifically because I didn't want to mess with removing the thermostat.

Took the Jeep out last night on a 5 mile drive in stop and go traffic and all the data coming in from the OBDII module to my phone was good. Steady temp at 203F and no misfires.

 

[seafish]

Glad that you figured it out!!! I was in fact going to scold you for using the Bars stop leak.

IMO, radiator stop leak on any vehicle, let alone these Jeeps with their EGR cooling system, should only be used in an emergency to get a vehicle home safely and then be flushed out and proper repairs made.

 

[ebgasolinedream024]

Glad that you figured it out!!! I was in fact going to scold you for using the Bars stop leak.

IMO, radiator stop leak on any vehicle, let alone these Jeeps with their EGR cooling system, should only be used in an emergency to get a vehicle home safely and then be flushed out and proper repairs made.

100% agreed . Just buying some time till I figure out what to do for a permanent replacement.