Power loss .. turbo ?

Discussion in 'KJ General Discussion' started by Steven Rolfe, Sep 20, 2020.

  1. Steven Rolfe

    Steven Rolfe New Member

    Messages:
    11
    Likes Received:
    1
    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2020
    Dear all.. my normally trusted jeep 2.8 CRD limited, 2003 is playing up.. MIL light is on but my two code readers and my local garage show No codes.. took to a Jeep dealer and they told me that the turbo had failed.. so yesterday I removed the air box and a few other bits and pieces to get to the turbo. I could clearly see the compressor rotor and it span very freely by hand, no slop or damage. Clean and shiny.. having removed the outlet and input hoses I started the engine, sure enough the turbo span, I carefully put my hand near the inlet and it was definitely sucking air in and the outlet was blowing well . I put the outlet hose on , the one that would go to the intercooler, got my Mrs to gently rev the engine and it blew like a leaf blower, plenty of wind.. it did now make a wining sound at higher revs but it sounded correct considering the blades were rotating at thousands of revs.. with the hoses on you don't hear this sound. So in your expert opinions do you agree the turbo is doing its job.. but I still have the symptoms of very poor acceleration over 30 mph, it revs up when not under load almost as normal but going up any slight gradient it's really struggling to get over 40 to 50.. it's flat out and just creeping along.. all advice would be great. One point, at the start of the problem it did loose power but half way through the journey it came back to life again. So I am more thinking it's not mechanical .. I am going to look at the MAP sensor now and give it a clean .. jeep said a turbo was going to cost thousands.. stealers lol
     
    John P. likes this.
  2. DadOSix

    DadOSix Full Access Member

    Messages:
    133
    Likes Received:
    46
    Joined:
    May 20, 2020
    Location:
    Cumberland, MD.
    I dont have a crd, but recall seeing somewheres that there is a black box on the turbo unit that controls the unit. Jeep’s solution is to replace the turbo as they say the control unit is not serviced separately. I do think when this box acts up, it throws codes. There is a you tube video of a fellow repairing one, and several companies that can rework yours in a few days.

    there are some crd folks here, so maybe they can help decide. I dont like to fire the parts cannon unless sure. Thats the difference between a mechanic and a parts changer.
     
  3. Billwill

    Billwill Full Access Member

    Messages:
    1,735
    Likes Received:
    265
    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2009
    Location:
    White River, South Africa
    Where are you located? A 2003 2.8 CRD must be an Export model.

    The 2.8 Export model 2005/6 is pretty similar to the USA/ canada models but some differences as far as the 2002 CRD...like I have..and the 2003/4 models. My 2002 Export is 2.5L Manual with a fixed -vane turbo....changed to 2.8L variable vane in mid 2003 with Automatic available and disk brakes at rear and ABS available both of which I do not Have!:(

    The early model CRDs like ours have a problem with pulling stored codes out with any code reader other than the Dealer's OBDIII which they use when ever they do any work on the Jeeps.

    These early CRDs use only a PCI BUS for communication...newer KJs use PCI Bus to a very small level and mainly use CAN and SCSI Busses.

    I drove my CRD to a BOSCH Dealer and asked them to pull codes out of my ECM...they took one look at my BOSCH ECM and shook their heads!

    So for the past 18 years I have been using a "Key" method of pulling codes.

    With the ignition OFF rapidly turn the the key to ignition ON/OFF 4 times.
    After the 4th time leave the ignition ON and the Odometer Display on the cluster will display codes in sequence from oldest to newest...write them down and you can repeat the above at any time.

    If doing this action 4 times does not work...try doing it 3 times!
    The Export models seem to like 4 times while the USA/Canada owners pull the codes out using the action only 3 times.

    Any code is only stored once so although you may be having a certain code set every day...it will only show up once.

    I have heard that sometimes the last 2 digits can be transposed so a code of P123 may show as P132 which may or may not be a valid code...I have never seen this happen.

    You cannot erase the codes using this method and you will not find a code reader that will be able to read or erase the codes but it does seem to me that very old codes seem to dissapear after a while.

    Then download the 2003 Jeep KJ Service Manuals on the link below!

    Very important for these early Export CRDs is to also download the section you will see there: "2_5 2_8 export_diesel'...this has a few very useful sections...one has has all the Error Codes listed with a description of what they mean and what to do about them.

    The other manual...2003 Jeep KJ Service Manual has useful information...Section 8W has the wiring diagrams.

    So make a note of the last few codes...the preceding codes may be ancient and no longer relevant.;)

    www.colorado4wheel.com/manuals/Jeep/KJ/

    And get your dumb Dealer to use their DBIII scanner to clear all your old codes so you are only dealing with your current problem.....doubt the Turbo is failing but the Experts here will help you as regards the movable-vane Turbo...maybe one of the Turbo Hoses is torn or split....does happen and normaly blows black smoke with loss of power!
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2020
    DadOSix likes this.
  4. turblediesel

    turblediesel memberable

    Messages:
    2,458
    Likes Received:
    206
    Joined:
    May 31, 2015
    Location:
    Isolation Alaska
    Check your air intake hose going from the airbox to the turbo; They rot a hole in the bottom of the hose near the turbo and change the readings from the airbox sensors. Check for rot holes in the intercooler hoses as well. Replace with silicon hoses if they're bad. There's a gadget with a tiny air filter between the turbo and passenger fender; check the little air filter and look on LOSTJEEPS for a test process for the gadget which is a turbo vane actuator (or something like that), they go bad. You can reach under the turbo and move the variable vane mechanism to see if it's moving freely. Do that on a cold non-running engine.

    I doubt there's any problem with your turbo if there's no play on the shaft. A tiny bit of end play is OK.

    ID Parts and Sasquatch Parts have almost anything you'll need.
     
    DadOSix likes this.
  5. Steven Rolfe

    Steven Rolfe New Member

    Messages:
    11
    Likes Received:
    1
    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2020

    Thanks very much indeed for your help, i really appreciate your response and links... the Jeep is a UK model, but I brought it over to Switzerland with me where I now work, the Swiss Jeep dealer quoted 4500 chf to swap out the turbo, even they said it was expensive, considering I paid 1800£ for the jeep 3 years ago I just laughed... I actually only got the jeep as a winter car as my Mercedes CL 63 AMG was going to cost me over 1000£ in winter tires so I thought a Jeep would be fun..... I will have a look today to do the 4 key trick.... the MAP sensor was awkward to get to but once out I saw it was absolutely caked in black gunk.... I gave it a good blast with some bike chain solvent cleaning spray and then a gentle swab with a few cotton ear buds in WD40 to get it relatively clean, its 100 times better than before, I am not a electronics hardware engineer but it looks like it is an electronic component that is just in a protective cage with a little support arm to its side. I think its pretty resilient to cleaning it with any solvent type spray from WD40 to carb cleaner, the carb cleaner being some cocktail of hazardous materials that really are really aggressive compared to WD40.... Carb cleaner is in my opinion something to be used with care when around plastics... its liable to attack and destroy.... have you seen cellulose thinners on acrylic... OMG... Anyway time to get on... thanks again Regards Steve
     
  6. Steven Rolfe

    Steven Rolfe New Member

    Messages:
    11
    Likes Received:
    1
    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2020
    than
    Thanks very much indeed, I will take a look to see if I have the vane actuator... there is certainly a little pipe coming off from the Turbo , not sure where it goes though... Regards Steve
     
  7. Steven Rolfe

    Steven Rolfe New Member

    Messages:
    11
    Likes Received:
    1
    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2020
    the strd
     
  8. Steven Rolfe

    Steven Rolfe New Member

    Messages:
    11
    Likes Received:
    1
    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2020
    Ju
    I sent a moaning Email to the Jeep garage, they now admit the Turbo itself is OK, the error message appears that the problem is an excessive inlet pressure. The turbine as well as the compressor are working well. However, the problem is the Wastegate regulation.

    Of course Jeep tell me this is a part that doesn't exist.....

    I will start to give it a good wiggle if I can get to it... I know it works off of pressure so I will also try a bike pump on it....

    Fingers crossed..
     
  9. Steven Rolfe

    Steven Rolfe New Member

    Messages:
    11
    Likes Received:
    1
    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2020

    Did the 4 key turns... heypresto.... all the codes appear ....

    I didn't have a pen in the car but there were 5 different codes and I will write them down tomorrow and see what they are..

    Thanks again..... Regards Steve
     
  10. Billwill

    Billwill Full Access Member

    Messages:
    1,735
    Likes Received:
    265
    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2009
    Location:
    White River, South Africa
    Whenever I hit the road...even if it is only to the local shops...I make sure that I have my Laptop with me so I can access the Service Manuals for the Export 2002 CRD that I have downloaded.

    Also have my Fluke Multimeter, spare wire, insulation tape and lots of tools in case I have a break-down!:eek:

    Also a large hat to protect my head from the African sun!

    Been there done that with some electrical problems!:(

    And I make sure that I have some pens and paper handy;)
     
    Steven Rolfe likes this.
  11. turblediesel

    turblediesel memberable

    Messages:
    2,458
    Likes Received:
    206
    Joined:
    May 31, 2015
    Location:
    Isolation Alaska
    Euro models have no variable vane, US models have no wastegate.

    Glad you got it working, I didn't realize you were in the UK.
     
  12. Billwill

    Billwill Full Access Member

    Messages:
    1,735
    Likes Received:
    265
    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2009
    Location:
    White River, South Africa
    The early Export CRDs like my 2002 Export 2.5L CRD 5 speed Manual is a fixed vane turbo with what looks like a wastegate directly attached to the Turbo but basically acts like an EGR and diverts some exhaust gas into the intake manifold.
    Very easy to disable this "EGR" by blocking off the rubber pipe that activates it via a solenoid...not checked by the ECM as long as the solenoid stays electricaly plugged in.

    From about mid 2003 these changed to a variable vane turbo with an EGR much like the USA models with some slight different tubing...."glend" from "ausjeepoffroad" posted about this slight difference years ago.

    Export models also came out with a better Fuel Filter Head than the USA models came out with.

    My 2002 CRD has a Bosch MAP sensor that is held on by two small Allen bolts as apposed to the USA models that use one larger Allen bolt.

    So I believe that the OP has a Variable Vane Turbo with probably a similar Vane Actuator Assembly as the USA models...not sure if it has the "butterfly' in the intake or what sort of MAP it has.

    The Export 2005/6/7 CRDs are pretty much the same as the USA/Canada 2005/6 models I believe.

    The OP has now managed to pull 5 codes out of the ECM using the "key" trick...I gave him a link to the "2_5 2_8 export diesel" manuals at "colorado" which lists the codes and gives some advice on what to do about them..as soon as the OP posts these codes I will look into them from my side and assist!;)
     
  13. turblediesel

    turblediesel memberable

    Messages:
    2,458
    Likes Received:
    206
    Joined:
    May 31, 2015
    Location:
    Isolation Alaska
    Thanks Billwill! I thought it was much simpler than that... wishfull thinking!
     
  14. Steven Rolfe

    Steven Rolfe New Member

    Messages:
    11
    Likes Received:
    1
    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2020

    So the old Jeep seems to back to normal (so much for it needing a new TURBO) now after giving the MAP a total clean... it was super clogged up.... I did have a look at the EGR solenoid, popped the two top pipes off and there was plenty of suck from one of the pipes.

    There are only two pins to the plug, I did put 12v to them but nothing much happened, I was expecting a jolt of movement .. I sucked with my mouth and a definite diaphragm seemed to move inside like a one way valve.. i blew from the bottom inlet to.

    Don't know if its working though.

    I did notice and have before, that with the engine off just after its been running something makes a weird low frequency mechanical buzzing noise around the vicinity if the actual EGR metal diaphragm part. it lasts for a good few minutes, its a bit difficult to identify where it is coming from..

    I might have another look later.. If I can get a second hand solenoid I will, I also might as a test just put a pipe clamp to block one of the hoses to see the effect.... keeping all connected though....
     
  15. Billwill

    Billwill Full Access Member

    Messages:
    1,735
    Likes Received:
    265
    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2009
    Location:
    White River, South Africa
    That low buzzing noise is normal after shutdown.

    I have it on my fixed-vane turbo model and I have seen a lot of posts about it happening on movable-vane turbos!;)
     
  16. Steven Rolfe

    Steven Rolfe New Member

    Messages:
    11
    Likes Received:
    1
    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2020


    Okay thanks.... the noise seems to be though not from around the turbo but the EGR actuator... its like its hyperventilating lol

    Yesterday I also put the remaining new hub on the front as well as a new disk and pads.. I did the other side last weekend.. a few pics.. 5 bolts to take off , 5 wheel nuts and the hub nut... thank goodness for my Milwaukee M18 impact wrench...


    upload_2020-9-27_17-7-43.png
    upload_2020-9-27_17-8-31.png
    upload_2020-9-27_17-19-19.png

    I did give the surface a good clean up with my die grinder and a scotch bright pad, then a good coat with Copper Slip grease.

    upload_2020-9-27_17-12-56.png

    Nice new shiny parts...

    upload_2020-9-27_17-16-1.png

    Job done, such a visually pleasing difference....

    Two hubs, two disks, new Bosch (good pads) including 35 chf postage, about 250 total chf...

    Probably would of been 1000 at the dealer...
     

    Attached Files:

  17. Billwill

    Billwill Full Access Member

    Messages:
    1,735
    Likes Received:
    265
    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2009
    Location:
    White River, South Africa
    Nice work. I need to have my rear brakes done soon...unfortunately my 2002 Export CRD came out with Drums at the rear.

    Too much like hard work to do it myself....old and getting lazy or is it lazy and getting old?;)

    Will take it to brake specialists when Covid 19 dies down a bit more!
     
  18. turblediesel

    turblediesel memberable

    Messages:
    2,458
    Likes Received:
    206
    Joined:
    May 31, 2015
    Location:
    Isolation Alaska
    I'd have to look at my book to be sure where the EGR actuator is and I'm lost on the euro model differences from US versions. If the actuator is attached directly to the EGR then the exhaust part of the EGR could be sooted up too much to move smoothly. There were problems with lots of the US models early on due to the dirty US diesel fuel. That was before the US was required to produce low-sulfur diesel; still dirty by euro standards. Might have been a recall on that.

    I don't think the euro models have the flow control valve (FCV?) in the intake just before the intake manifold but they strip their plastic gears and make a buzzy noise best heard on shutdown when they close.
     
  19. Steven Rolfe

    Steven Rolfe New Member

    Messages:
    11
    Likes Received:
    1
    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2020

    Now this is getting weird......

    Drove 30 miles, did a tight left and right turn off of a motorway to get to a service station to get some diesel ( my car is UK version but I am driving on the Right in Switzerland)

    It was performing totally fine... back on the motorway again doing a few tight turns to get to the slip road, all power gone again, could hardly get 40MPH out and revs were 3000 +

    Pulled off to a parking area did a steering wheel lock to lock and reversed into and out of a parking slot, pulled away and all power back to normal..

    So something is going on when the steering is turned lock to lock.... don't think its anything to do with going into reverse.... Any ideas what it could be?

    Perhaps something is being pulled or tugged ?

    Steering sensor ?

    I don't have traction control...

    Really strange and so annoying.
     
  20. Billwill

    Billwill Full Access Member

    Messages:
    1,735
    Likes Received:
    265
    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2009
    Location:
    White River, South Africa
    You did the 4 times "key' trick previously and got about 5 codes you said....keeping them from us!:confused:

    Do this "key" trick again and see if you get any more codes following on after the previous 5.

    Let us know all the codes from first displayed to last please!;)

    You should be able to check all the codes in the "2_5 2_8 export diesel" manual you downloaded at the time you downloaded the "2003 Jeep KJ Service Manuals".

    Could be the "clock spring" did not like being turned all the way to one end?o_O