Front Brakes Replaced. Braking Is Worse

[RChris173]

Hello,

I have a 2003 Jeep Liberty without ABS. I had my local Jeep dealership install new brake pads and they said that turning the rotors was all that was necessary and that replacing the rotors wasn't needed.

I was worn down to only 5% of brake pad left on both pads before I took it to the dealership and the braking power of the Jeep was still sufficient, and the pedal was firm.

After I picked up the Jeep from the dealer, I noticed a significant difference in the braking power. It was much WORSE. The pedal turned into a sponge and the front wheels would not lock up no matter how hard I pressed down on the pedal. Even if I pushed it to the floor. Even going 20 mph, the vehicle hesitates to stop.

I noticed this significantly when I drove it off the dealer's lot and almost crashed into a car at a traffic light.

I brought it back to the Jeep dealership the following morning and pointed these specific problems out and mentioned:

1) Did the mechanic turn the rotors and thin out beyond the minimum specification?

2) Did the mechanic push air into the braking system when he installed the new brakes after connecting the piston to the caliper?

3) Did you use the correct brake pads (NON ABS)?

------------------------

Result was that my vehicle sat in the garage untouched for 2 hours. I had someone take me to a nearby restaurant to get lunch and then when I got back the Jeep was sitting out in the lot.

I asked what they did. I was told that the braking system was completely bled out and that it should be fine.

I drove the vehicle with one of the service personnel around the lot and nearby street. I still mentioned that the pedal was extremely soft and spongy. He downplayed it and acted as if it was "normal."

I eventually left after telling them I was not satisfied and speaking with the service manager who didn't do anything to rectify the situation.

So I called the Corporate Chrysler number and explained the scenario above and then got a call back the same day stating that the shop "repaired" the vehicle after the "first time" (when the new brakes were installed).

I called Corporate Chrysler back and explained in further detail as to specifically what happened literally verbatim with specific names and mechanics, etc.

Then the same individual called me back from Chrysler Corporate and stated that my options at this point were to take it to another Chrysler dealership and have it inspected and then follow up with Chrysler Corporate with my Case number.

I informed him that I would be taking my Jeep to an Independent Repair Facility that specializes with Jeeps and have the following things checked:

1) Were the brakes in fact actually completely bled as the dealership stated?

2) Is there a difference as to what kind of brake pads should go on a NON ABS Jeep?

3) The thickness of the rotors and if they were turned when they should not have been or if the rotors are now damaged because of the Chrysler dealership.

---
(Should not be affected by a brake pad replacement, but will have them inspected anyway

4) Master Cylinder

5) Proportioning Valve Diaphragm

6) Brake Booster

I explained to the Service Manager, on the phone, that if the Independent Repair Facility finds any fault in the workmanship of the Jeep's braking system that I will demand a full refund or I will file a chargeback with the credit card company under the clause that the services were not rendered as described and I will provide documentation from the Independent Repair Facility and explain that I contacted the dealership several times and Corporate and received no remedies.

I then added that I would take his dealership to small claims court in this county and file an official Complaint for the total amount of the repair work if any attempt was made to collect on the chargeback and that I would utilize my existing legal counsel with whom I already have an established attorney-client relationship with on a separate legal matter.

Any suggestions, fellow Jeepers?

Am I being pushed around? Shouldn't the braking system be noticeable BETTER if anything after getting NEW brakes.

Why would the OLD braking system work better than the NEW brake installation?

Obviously something happened at the dealership and they don't care about solving it for me.

I will keep this thread updated with the news as I get it.

opcorn:

 

[tjkj2002]

You did not properly bed-in the pads and that is why they felt worse then the old pads.You can not just jump in and drive and brake normally after having the brakes done,more so the fronts.You now most likely have glazed the pads/rotors and require the rotors to be turned again and the pads scuffed then you can bed-in the pads.Basically light to moderate stops for 500 miles,no panic stops,no trailer towing,no wheeling,and don't ride the brakes but the better method in link below.



The best way,it does work,even for other types of pads/rotors,follow to the letter.
Brake Pad Break-in

Not there fault but yours.

 

[RChris173]

You did not properly bed-in the pads and that is why they felt worse then the old pads.You can not just jump in and drive and brake normally after having the brakes done,more so the fronts.You now most likely have glazed the pads/rotors and require the rotors to be turned again and the pads scuffed then you can bed-in the pads.Basically light to moderate stops for 500 miles,no panic stops,no trailer towing,no wheeling,and don't ride the brakes but the better method in link below.



The best way,it does work,even for other types of pads/rotors,follow to the letter.
Brake Pad Break-in

Not there fault but yours.

Where did I state in my post it is my fault? Please explain where I stated panic stops, or trailer towing or off roading?

Even if I had to panic stop, the vehicle should be able to sufficiently handle it and not just roll with the vehicle and have a spongy pedal AFTER the fact.

That signifies AIR in the braking system AFTER the brake job.

So right, it's ALL my fault and not "there" but "their" fault.

I don't mean to sound rude, but you have no idea of the circumstances and jump to a conclusion and automatically, subjectively, assume certain assumptions and then come to the conclusion that the rotors are ruined and the pads are ruined now because of me.

Why didn't the dealership explain this was expected behavior of the brakes then? Why didn't the dealership WARN me or INSTRUCT me on how to drive the vehicle?

Why does the car roll downhill with the brake pedal FULLY pressed to the floor?

Excuse me, but there is something seriously wrong with the braking system and it requires serious repairs due to the ****** job that dealership did.

:wtf2:

 

[tjkj2002]

Where did I state in my post it is my fault? Please explain where I stated panic stops, or trailer towing or off roading?

Even if I had to panic stop, the vehicle should be able to sufficiently handle it and not just roll with the vehicle and have a spongy pedal AFTER the fact.

That signifies AIR in the braking system AFTER the brake job.

So right, it's ALL my fault and not "there" but "their" fault.

I don't mean to sound rude, but you have no idea of the circumstances and jump to a conclusion and automatically, subjectively, assume certain assumptions and then come to the conclusion that the rotors are ruined and the pads are ruined now because of me.

Why didn't the dealership explain this was expected behavior of the brakes then? Why didn't the dealership WARN me or INSTRUCT me on how to drive the vehicle?

Why does the car roll downhill with the brake pedal FULLY pressed to the floor?

Excuse me, but there is something seriously wrong with the braking system and it requires serious repairs due to the ****** job that dealership did.

:wtf2:

Spongy pedal,or what some may think is,actually is not and user created by not bedding-in the pads correctly.Every brake job I have ever done,and that is alot,the new brakes have always felt worse then the old brakes till there bedded-in and have about 200-500 miles on them.No difference between abs or not for pads.If they just turned the rotors and installed new pads they never opened the hydrualic system so no way for air to enter the system.

I've dealt with customers just like you and have face planted many into there own windshields(they don't wear there seatbelts) to prove there brakes work just fine.


Oh and your panic stop(aggresive/hard braking)......................

the front wheels would not lock up no matter how hard I pressed down on the pedal. Even if I pushed it to the floor.

Till I changed from the stock brakes I could never lock my front wheels up unless I was on ice,no ABS here either.

 

[Ohio-white-kj]

Spongy pedal,or what some may think is,actually is not and user created by not bedding-in the pads correctly.Every brake job I hav

Till I changed from the stock brakes I could never lock my front wheels up unless I was on ice,no ABS here either.

While I agree with bedding in, 400-500 miles is NOT the norm, nor is it the recommended procedure for all pads.

Hawk has a detailed procedure for their pads. Off the top of my head it's 10 stops, some from 25 or so them some from 45, cool down, etc.

Hawk also has specific rotor cleaning procedures.

I have no idea if other pads have instructions or not, nor how a dealership handles it because I have never had anyone else do brake work on any vehicle of mine.


To the op - your old pads might have been harder / BETTER than the stock pads they installed.

There is no difference in non-abs pads. I, also have one of the few non-abs Libbys.

 

[tommudd]

Pretty common knowledge in how to break in new brakes
or at least I've been telling folks how to for over 40 years
Hawk may have different opinions since I've never had them or will

One of a few KJs without ABS??? :anitoof::hmm::hmm:
1000s out there without I made sure mine didn't

 

[TwoBobsKJ]

I agree that proper bedding-in of the pads is necessary for correct long term operation, but not being able to stop the Jeep at a traffic light after the service was done is NOT normal.

Even the bedding-in procedure requires you to bring the Jeep to a near stop from 25 and 45 mph which evidently the OP was not able to do. Not being able to hold the Jeep at a stop on a down grade? That's not normal. Shoot, the REAR brakes alone should be able to hold the Jeep at a stop even if the fronts are toast. And with the cross design of brake systems you should be able to stop the vehicle even if one half of the brake system is shot - one of the brake lines in my daughter's Focus burst (right front to left rear) and the other half would still stop the car (we got it to the shop before all the brake fluid was forced out.)

IMO there is something wrong with the repair job and the only thing I would have done differently is have the technician drive the Jeep while you sat in the passenger seat. Let HIM feel how the brake system is operating rather than trying to communicate it to him. The Jeep should have been fully road-tested anyway.

For what it's worth, I have an '03 without ABS and the pads used aren't different for ABS vs Non-ABS.

Bob

 

[yellocoyote]

I'd have to agree with the OP and Bob... any of the brake jobs on my KJ have resulted in better braking at first (even before the bedding process). If new fluid and proper bleeding had been done with the pad/rotor replacement/turn, the braking power had always been better than pre-service.

Something sounds suspicious to me also. I would check back with your dealer. Maybe there is something more happening in your braking system than either you or your dealer are aware of (although, you would think they might check out the overall system :shrug: ).

Or do the work yourself next time (if you can).

 

[belvedere]

I agree that proper bedding-in of the pads is necessary for correct long term operation, but not being able to stop the Jeep at a traffic light after the service was done is NOT normal.

------------------------

IMO there is something wrong with the repair job and the only thing I would have done differently is have the technician drive the Jeep while you sat in the passenger seat. Let HIM feel how the brake system is operating rather than trying to communicate it to him. The Jeep should have been fully road-tested anyway.

I fully agree with all of the above. My first thought was that they used some very poor quality pads, but when the OP talks about the pedal being on the floor and the Jeep still rolling, I believe that something else is wrong.

 

[Leeann]

I'd have to agree with the OP and Bob... any of the brake jobs on my KJ have resulted in better braking at first (even before the bedding process). If new fluid and proper bleeding had been done with the pad/rotor replacement/turn, the braking power had always been better than pre-service.

Something sounds suspicious to me also. I would check back with your dealer. Maybe there is something more happening in your braking system than either you or your dealer are aware of (although, you would think they might check out the overall system :shrug: ).

Or do the work yourself next time (if you can).

Same here. I just replaced front and rear brakes on mine and the braking power was instantly, massively, improved, even prior to bedding in. Something else is going on.

 

[tommudd]

I guess I look at differently than most since I was a suspension and brake specialist/tech for quite a few years. Not sure how many times I've heard that braking was worse afterwards than it was before when all it ended up being was bedding the shoes/pads in and getting used to the new brakes.
What some call not being able to stop and what I call slamming you into the windshield can be very close
So..............................................
first I would of never let them turn the rotors , they should of been replaced
second in just replacing the pads and turning the rotors nothing they could of done to of made the brakes worse.
third possibly the OP chose to use a lesser brake pad, were there options given as to which brake pads were used
Lots of still unknowns
hope he gets it fixed if it is as bad as they state

 

[tjkj2002]

I agree that proper bedding-in of the pads is necessary for correct long term operation, but not being able to stop the Jeep at a traffic light after the service was done is NOT normal.

Even the bedding-in procedure requires you to bring the Jeep to a near stop from 25 and 45 mph which evidently the OP was not able to do. Not being able to hold the Jeep at a stop on a down grade? That's not normal. Shoot, the REAR brakes alone should be able to hold the Jeep at a stop even if the fronts are toast. And with the cross design of brake systems you should be able to stop the vehicle even if one half of the brake system is shot - one of the brake lines in my daughter's Focus burst (right front to left rear) and the other half would still stop the car (we got it to the shop before all the brake fluid was forced out.)

IMO there is something wrong with the repair job and the only thing I would have done differently is have the technician drive the Jeep while you sat in the passenger seat. Let HIM feel how the brake system is operating rather than trying to communicate it to him. The Jeep should have been fully road-tested anyway.

For what it's worth, I have an '03 without ABS and the pads used aren't different for ABS vs Non-ABS.

Bob

I'd have to agree with the OP and Bob... any of the brake jobs on my KJ have resulted in better braking at first (even before the bedding process). If new fluid and proper bleeding had been done with the pad/rotor replacement/turn, the braking power had always been better than pre-service.

Something sounds suspicious to me also. I would check back with your dealer. Maybe there is something more happening in your braking system than either you or your dealer are aware of (although, you would think they might check out the overall system :shrug: ).

Or do the work yourself next time (if you can).

I fully agree with all of the above. My first thought was that they used some very poor quality pads, but when the OP talks about the pedal being on the floor and the Jeep still rolling, I believe that something else is wrong.

Same here. I just replaced front and rear brakes on mine and the braking power was instantly, massively, improved, even prior to bedding in. Something else is going on.

When I put new pads/rotors up front on mine I have almost zero brakes(not joking either) till I bed them in then I can lock them up at will.And yes the pedal will go all the way to the floor also.

 

[yellocoyote]

Only time mine goes all the way to the floor right after a brake job is when I didn't bleed the lines.

Then I scare the (censored) out of myself when I go to back out of my driveway and can't stop. eek2.gif

It only happened once.

 

[ThunderbirdJunkie]

ThunderbirdJunkie thinks the tech allowed the caliper to dangle from the brake hose.

So spake unto the unwashed masses the great ThunderbirdJunkie; forth they went to spread the word of his great prophecy.

Sent from ThunderbirdJunkie's mind via satellites

 

[tjkj2002]

Only time mine goes all the way to the floor right after a brake job is when I didn't bleed the lines.

Then I scare the (censored) out of myself when I go to back out of my driveway and can't stop. eek2.gif

It only happened once.

If you never open the system there is no need to bleed.Doing a basic brake job does not require you to open the system.

Or are you talking about building up pressure in the system to force the pads against the rotors?

 

[ThunderbirdJunkie]

If you never open the system there is no need to bleed.Doing a basic brake job does not require you to open the system.

Or are you talking about building up pressure in the system to force the pads against the rotors?

If you push the pistons back and don't pump the brakes first thing before moving, it will have the same effect.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk 4

 

[tjkj2002]

If you push the pistons back and don't pump the brakes first thing before moving, it will have the same effect.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk 4

Yeah seen many idiots make that mistake,as soon as the last bolt is tightened I always pump the pedal,even before the wheels go back on.

 

[yellocoyote]

If you never open the system there is no need to bleed.Doing a basic brake job does not require you to open the system.

Or are you talking about building up pressure in the system to force the pads against the rotors?

What TBJ said - forgetting to pump the brakes once is what I was referencing above.

There have been occasions that we've bled the system for other symptoms than basic pad/rotor replacement, or have had the lines open... like when I had to replace a rusted front brake line.

 

[RChris173]

Got back from the Independent Repair Facility.

This is what was stated:

"BRAKE PEDAL IS VERY SPONGY"

"CUSTOMER HAS BEEN ADVISED THAT THE BRAKE WERE NOT COMPLETLY BLED. BOTH DRIVER SIDE BLEEDER VALVES WERE WET, BUT BOTH PASSENGER SIDE BLEEDER VALVES ON CALIPERS WERE DRY. APPEARS TO HAVE AIR IN THE SYSTEM DUE TO IMPROPER BLEEDING."

The IRF also stated that the brakes should have been bled from the rear to front.

They suspect also air was introduced when the piston was inserted or if the dealership did not properly bleed it whether it used a manual method or automatic machine.

Left rotor in front: 1.081 measured, discard at spec: 1.024
Left rotor in rear: .497 measured, discard at spec: .433

I am taking it to a 2nd shop for another Independent opinion on the system and then I will have enough evidence to file suit against the dealership if the credit card company chargeback method fails.

The dealership really screwed this Jeep over and made a very angry customer who will never take his Jeep there again.

 

[belvedere]

So, did this shop actually bleed the brakes and fix the problem, or just do an inspection?