CRD Intake Elbow Kit - Deletes EGR, FCV

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Lancer

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Hi - I saw this thread and raised it on Ausjeep (I'm in England, but the Aussies have the same export model we do) and one of the more experienced guys raised this question -

"How does it get past the MIL being on and logging a EGR error code with the EGR Solenoid disconnected?"

I have no idea about the techicalities of this sort of thing, so I have no idea what the question actually means, but what's the answer?

Another of the guys also raised the point about losing protection from a runaway situation on shutdown if the FCV is - effectively- taken out?
 

sasquatchms

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Hi Lancer,

No matter how you disable the EGR system, you will have a check engine light. Most people disable it by disconnecting the MAF connector, and the vehicle drives normal (actually better) but you do have the idiot light. That can only be avoided through electronics (GDE tune, SEGR, or some are now getting into custom modding their ECU tunes). So yes, if you install the kit you will get a CEL but that's not really the fault of the kit, per se. Make sense?

Your second point has been a point of discussion for CRD owners for a long time. My answer, which is a 2-parter:

1) EGR Valve as turbo surge protector - technically, the turbocharger is a VNT, it uses variable vane technology to regulate boost. There is no wastegate. The EGR valve is not used as a wastegate.

2) Flow Control Valve as runaway engine protector - This is debatable. It's primary functionality is to increase the amount of exhaust gasses through the EGR system and into your engine. It robs power, and dumps soot into your engine. That's BAD. It's secondary function is as an "anti-shudder" mechanism. When you turn your key to OFF it momentarily closes, and then re-opens. The idea is that the engine will shut down faster. But myself, and other LOST members, have experienced no noticeable difference with the valve installed and uninstalled in this regard. As far as a runaway engine goes, the valve only closes momentarily upon shut down (key OFF) and then re-opens almost immediately. This may not be enough to stop the runaway engine feedback loop caused by your blown turbo. I have seen only ONE thread about an actual runaway CRD - and guess what, he had a fully functional flow control valve in place. And he had known for a while his turbo was going south (smoke out the tailpipe and lots of shaft play). Go figure.

In BOTH scenarios, we are talking about a catastrophic failure of your turbocharger. In scenario #1 your turbocharger veins have locked up and your turbo is at maximum boost pressure. In this case the EGR may be able to bleed some boost off, but it may not. But your engine will be running noticeable bizarre and you will investigate and discover your issue.

In scenario #2, your turbo seals have utterly failed, and engine oil, having the same energy content as diesel fuel, is entering the combustion chamber and fueling combustion without the presence of diesel fuel (key OFF). This is a rare event. There have been many, many, many diesel engines produced over the years that do not have protections for this circumstance. Again, this is a rare event. If you regularly check your turbocharger for shaft play and keep your engine oil clean and topped off (and change it every now and then...) you should be able to catch any issues before they become catastrophic.

You have to weigh this unlikely scenario against the alternative 100% guaranteed scenario of EGR Soot entering your engine and destroying it over time. Also, your flow control valve, which is a fairly complex electronic mechanism driven by gears, will eventually fail and you are stuck with the $300-$500 bill (just the part) to replace if you want to retain its functionality. A lot of guys just remove it and call it a day.

The kit has other benefits as well, such as:

Increased power
Better fuel economy
MUCH easier glow plug access
No more boost leaks from your intake elbow gaskets (there are several) and EGR tube connections.
Eliminates intake soot
Prolongs engine life


With all that said (whew) I do understand this product is not for everyone. But those who have purchased it so far (and they are selling like hot cakes) are giving it great reviews - throttle response being the initial first reaction, with other long term benefits as covered above.

Thanks for your question,
Seth
 
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Lancer

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Thanks Seth - I've only just got around to reading your reply! The export CRDs don't throw a CEL when the EGR is disabled - a few lads in Aus and the UK have just blocked the pipe with a piece of metal (I think one of the Aussies used an Australian coin which was a perfect fit!) and I have the GDE tune anyway.

I've sent an email to the address on your website asking about postage and the possibility of sending by UPS/Fedex because I have had some bad experiences with stuff sent by USPS priority mail.

Can you reassure me that taking the EGR and FCV out of the system doesn't increase emissions? We have to have an annual check by Ministry of Transport approved testers and this includes an emissions check, which I don't want to fall foul of! If the test is failed, the vehicle can't be driven on the public roads.
 

sasquatchms

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Lancer,

I just replied to your shipping inquiry. I can ship international via FedEx or USPS.

On diesel engines, it's widely accepted that disabling the EGR reduces particulate emissions but slightly increases NOx emissions (at idle) while increasing power, efficiency and fuel economy. Since it also reduces engine wear, your engine will last longer which benefits the environment as well. So basically, the only downside is a slight increase in NOx at idle.

Check out this Wikipedia article for more info on EGR on diesel engines: Exhaust gas recirculation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I designed the kit to be easily reversible for those of us who have to pass regular emissions tests. That said, I obviously cannot be held responsible if you fail an emissions test, as the product should only legally be used off road. Please read the terms and conditions before ordering: Sasquatch Motorsports - Jeep Liberty CRD Products

Let me know if I can of any further assistance.

Seth
 

Lancer

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Thanks for all of this Seth, and for the pm. I'll check the situation over here re emissions testing for Nox, although to the best of my recollection, the MoT testers are measuring smoke emissions from the exhaust, nothing more sophisticated!

While I'm being a pain in the backside, the basic ECU programme - which is unmodified by GDE, opens the EGR when the throttle is let off suddenly - basically pedal fairly hard down and then suddenly released, to dump any excess pressure from the turbo (at least that is my reading of the function) through the EGR. If the EGR is blanked - any risk to the turbo? I know that you sell a replacement Garrett, but I'd rather not have to buy one unless its REALLY necessary :)
 

sasquatchms

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Right, the "blow-off" type functionality built into the ECU. Keith and I have discussed this. I can tell you I have had no turbo surge issues on my test vehicle and no customers have had any issues that I know of (over 70 kits sold so far).

Since the kit removes the Flow Control Valve, there is not valve that suddenly closes when you quickly lift off the throttle. This is why gasoline engines require blow off valve because the throttle valve can shut suddenly and cause damage to the turbo.

Also, since our turbos are a VGT, it reacts very quickly to reduce boost pressure compared to a standard wastegated turbocharger. For these two reasons, turbo surge should not be an issue unless your VGT turbo veins are sticking (you would be able to tell).

Most people have already electronically disabled their EGR systems (on the U.S. models anyway) by unplugging the MAF connector. This also removes the ability for the EGR to act as you described.

The feedback I have gotten on the kit has been increased responsiveness, more power and better fuel economy. That and glow plug changes go from being a nightmare to a 30 minute job. No turbo surge issues.
 

Lancer

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Stone me Seth, you reply to questions so quickly that you must be glued to the computer keyboard! :)

Thanks for dealing with my queries so quickly and so patiently. I've checked our Ministry of Transport test requirements for diesels(manufactured post 1997) and they are measuring smoke. If your kit reduces particles, I'd have thought that would reduce the smoke - not that I ever see any from my exhaust anyway. There does not seem to be a test for NOx levels.

I'll get my order in for a kit to be sent Fedex - not much more expensive than USPS priority and (from my experience) a lot quicker and safer! Have I read that you include the studs etc in the kit as standard now?

Thanks for a well thought and made product. I must say that I was inclined towards it when I saw that papaindigo on LOST had ordered one - I've met him and have a lot of respect for his opinion on things KJ! We are both getting on a bit, and intend to keep our KJs until they fall to bits around us!

Also, thanks for your patience in answering questions from me that you must have had a dozen (at least) times before!

Adrian
 

sasquatchms

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Adrian, not a problem! Yes, you should have no issues passing the test if it is based on smoke. Yep the studs are included in the kit now.

Seth
 

Lancer

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Ok, it has now been fitted! Bit of difficulty getting the elbow on, because the aircon pipe was in the way. Fortunately, the chap fitting it is very good and managed to move the pipe enough without degassing the aircon unit. He fitted my JbA a-arms at the same time. The old elbow was full of goop, so we'll see how it goes now :)
 

The Big Boulonnais

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Ok, it has now been fitted! Bit of difficulty getting the elbow on, because the aircon pipe was in the way. Fortunately, the chap fitting it is very good and managed to move the pipe enough without degassing the aircon unit. He fitted my JbA a-arms at the same time. The old elbow was full of goop, so we'll see how it goes now :)

Hello Adrian,

I've read with great interest your email exchanges with Seth and I am very close to order a kit for my 2.8CRD as well but before going ahead I would like to ask you a couple of questions.

As your KJ is a RHD like mine for the UK market could you pleae confirm if the fact you have this kit has triggered or not an amber light in your Dashboard?

If yes did you manage to clear it? How ?

How much in GBP this kit cost you with shiiping and import tax included ?

Many thanks for your replies.

Chris
 

Lancer

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Hi Chris

No, it didn't trigger any warning lights at all. BUT remember that I've had the GDE FT Ecotune installed for over 2 years now, and that tune also reduces EGR function to a minimum and prevents the system throwing codes/warnings related to that function, so I can't say what it would do on yours. I can say that the guys in Aus who also have the export spec like ours and who simply blanked off the EGR didn't have any dash lights triggered. I'll have to dig out the receipt; the kit sat in the shed for a few months after I bought it before I got round to having it fitted.

Update: ok Chris, found the info. Cost of the kit in Sterling was £146 plus the sterling conversion fee of about £4.50. I had it sent by UPS (I think) and that added about £22.00 which included import. I've rounded up the odd pence! Hope this helps.

Adrian
 
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sasquatchms

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In observance of Veterans Day, we are offering $25 off, today only.

To those who have served, thank you!
 

Cyberdrone

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Small question, I have a broken egr pipe, and I have purchased a new pipe, however, I was not able to replace it as I was unable to detach the pipe at the intake. So I have closed the pipe at the beginning (see picture, close it at nr4), but left the rest of the pipe open, should I close that part to ? Because now I get the engine light on in the dashboard (probably EGR fault). Could it be that it gets bad air intake now ?

Sorry for the bad English ..

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