"Dead" cylinder with compression??

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Billwill

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Although yours is a 2005 KJ and you need to use the Service Manuals for that year...the 2006 KJ Service Manuals have a nice feature in that there is an index for the CEL codes that direct you to a step-by-step page that will tell you what to check for as regards that particular CEL code. One problem is that they assume you are a technician at a Dealer so it tells you to make use of their special DRB reader to make progress through the flow chart and take steps accordingly...still worth looking at though.

If you look at the 2005 KJ Service Manuals for the clutch replacement you will see that there are several things that have to be taken into account when replacing the flywheel.... apart from the machining aspect... such as the run-out of the flywheel, the type of bolts to use, the sequence of tightening the bolts down and of course the correct torque for the bolts, dirt present in the area etc.
So in other words maybe your mechanic did not have the flywheel machined down but when he swapped it over did he perform the above functions properly?
The friction plate also has to be facing in the correct direction which they do point out but from my previous experience when I was young and foolish when replacing clutches on other vehicles....putting the clutch friction plate in the wrong way around pretty much means that the clutch does not work at all and you have to pull it all apart again!

So definitely always take printouts of the relevant sections of the Service Manuals with you to your Mechanic.

Also I would advise you to post your problem history onto Lostjeeps.....they have a lot of serious experts there and maybe someone nearby who can help you. Over the years I subscribed to several Jeep KJ forums but now only use this jeepkj.com forum and Lostjeeps at: LOST JEEPS • Index page
 

Vgirl

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Thank you SO MUCH BillWill!!:flowers2:

Mine's an 03 actually! So far I printed out the Clutch section, Emissions Control, and Evaporative Emissions sections.

I definitely understand what you and JasonJ are saying about the flywheel and its requirements. Makes perfect sense. I can live with having to take it all apart vs finding a new flywheel that doesn't seem to be in production anymore..

I was going to ask the mechanic about all of this. But he didn't return my phone call nor text today. Another day spent waiting:(

Is a cat replacement - if needed, which is possible as it's the OE cat - something I could do myself? The clutch would be more difficult doing solo because of dropping the trans, that would need to be done at a shop.
I'm not afraid to do what work can be done myself. Anything that requires special tools or another person would not be possible.
I'm quite capable in general, only get lost in malls - which I avoid, have a decent tool collection already, access to more, including an air compressor. My profession is very physical and requires strength and precision. Plus I'm used to fixing and building things already. I've used manual and power tools and heavy machinery since I was little (horse farm girl). But I'm smart, so I don't want to get into something over my head!

This entire thing began July 8 when my Jeep broke down. It's been a saga, mostly because of waiting on/due to others. Very frustrating. I've had to manage and direct it all, stand my ground against gender inequality, and deal with most of it during a Lyme Disease infection (hope you don't have that in S. Africa!). Not to mention the expense. So I'm thinking I should just bypass all that nonsense and do what I can in my garage. Go into what I call F-it mode:)

Tomorrow I have to get ANOTHER rental car to be able to work this week so the new engine I just had installed won't get ruined by a bad cat. Tomorrow's commute alone is 75 miles. I'm not going to risk it. After the P0420 code on my 60 mile work commute yesterday, the engine struggled some and the RPMs ran below what they were previously. That can't be good.

Thank you for the LOST suggestion! I've been on there a bunch before during research and have seen your posts there too. I'll register and float out this situation there and see what happens.

Thank you, thank you!!
 

Billwill

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I cannot pretend to be able to help you with your CAT problem....although I am a cat lover...as I have a CRD without a CAT. The laws on pollution control are very lax here in SA. The only form of pollution control is to slap a fat Carbon Tax on New vehicles depending on the weight/size of the vehicle....where this money goes is a mystery.

Large diesel trucks and busses often spew out thick black smoke that makes it dangerous to overtake. In theory the cops have equipment to be able to pull these offenders over and test the pollution and fine the offenders....seldom happens.

We do not even have to roadworthy our vehicles on a yearly basis....only when buying a used vehicle. My Jeep is 16 years old and has never been to a roadworthy center as I got it new from the USA. We have vehicles on the road held together with duct tape and wire with smooth tires, belching out smoke carrying on with their business.

Anyhow both on this site and Lost you should get some good advise on how to sort your Cats out....good luck.
 

JasonJ

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Don't want to be a party-pooper but maybe you will end up removing the gearbox and have to put a steel straight edge across the flywheel to see if it is straight and also check if the friction plate has not been damaged.

^ I'd be doing this. By the sounds of it from additional info, I don't think that chatter is a belt tensioner (although they do make that noise). If it all goes away and gets smooth when you disengage (press in) the clutch, there's something off about the clutch assembly.

Thanks BillWill! No worries!! I appreciate all angles of perspective. I hope you're wrong, only because it would be terrible if you're right:(

Is checking the flywheel something I should do? Or ask the mechanic to do? I have to say at this point I believe - or want to believe - that he is being truthful about not machining it down. That would have been an additional cost, right? There is nothing additional on the invoice. Nor did he quote a machine shop price when we talked about doing the clutch. He only said, "the Mopar clutch kit from Jeep will be $***.xx" And from what I know of him thus far, I feel he would own up to it if he had made that mistake. If only because it would be an answer to the problem. Plus he is a humble person and honest as far as I know.

...

A thought I've had all along that keeps circling back today:
I replaced the OE clutch at 155K miles (all driven by me). Only because the pilot bearing blew - which was scary af btw. The rest of the clutch was perfect. I bought a LUK kit from Pep Boys and my friend's husband and his Jeep mechanic friend did the job. They dropped the trans. But I remember they removed the interior console and said they "had to." I can't recall why tho.

...

He even sent me links to used Patriots and Compasses with auto transmissions...so I'm not sure he's on the same page as me:blah:

I can look at the manual instructions you linked, too, to see if there's mention of that. But I thought I'd ask here in the event the info could help someone doing a search in the future.

Thank you again so much!!
I still hope you're wrong tho:)

Responding to the bolded portions. Well, if you're mechanically inclined and have the safe methods for doing so, yes, you should check the flywheel... if only because most of us here advocate learning to work on your own Jeep (for most of these very reasons). However, asking the mech to do it is obviously easier on you, but unless he suspects something is off there, he's not likely to do it on his good graces. Shop time costs money. So he may charge you- or do one of the "I'll tear into it and inspect it, but if it's all fine, you have to pay for my R&R time on that". things, which is fair and common.

Yes, I was going to reply to this this past weekend when you posted about your text conversation (those are always best done in person so there is no "oops my auto correct changed what I said to the complete opposite, thus absolving me of any blame" BS). There should be a sublet invoice if a machine shop did the work, and charged him. If it was done on the side, or he wasn't charged (like he forgot to quote you, found out later it was needed, didn't want to or couldn't ask you for a revised quote, he could have just eaten the charge from the machine shop or had a friend do it for him as a favor). If done properly, there would be a sublet line item on the invoice.

Friends husband and his Jeep mechanic friend probably disassembled the console to release the shift lever from the boot/console when lowering the transmission. It sounds like the alignment mismatch in the console may stem from that.

Patriots and Compasses... ick. The new new NEW ones are cool looking, but in the same age range as our KJ's, they're blah. They drive fine, but it's basically a car wanting to be a Jeep.

Looked it up. I'll only include the two relevant items from the full list. The first one may apply to the last shop. The second one to the new shop.
According to NOLO:

It is unlawful under the Auto Repairs Deceptive Practices Regulations and the New Jersey Consumer Fraud Act for an automotive repair dealer to do any of the following:

Make any written or oral statements that are misleading and deceptive which the automotive repair dealer knows to be untrue or misleading.

Fail to return parts to the consumer at the time the repair is completed provided that the consumer, before the work was commenced, requested the return of parts.


The full list is startling. I've never had a shop do all of what's listed.

Indeed. But it's also legally binding and should be referenced in the fine print of any work order we sign with a legit shop. Still, the law is the law. So they owe you a set of injectors or their cash value.

the P0420 code

It certainly could be the cat conv. itself, but I've seen dozens and dozens (actually, all but two) cases where that code was NOT the converter. Anythign that puts catalyst efficiency below threshold... too low... can pop that code off. Hell, I've seen misfires and rich fuel trims do that. But, I'd expect those codes to at least be pending as well. If it's JUST the P0420, check for exhaust leaks before the cat.

I cannot pretend to be able to help you with your CAT problem....although I am a cat lover...as I have a CRD without a CAT. The laws on pollution control are very lax here in SA. The only form of pollution control is to slap a fat Carbon Tax on New vehicles depending on the weight/size of the vehicle....where this money goes is a mystery.

Large diesel trucks and busses often spew out thick black smoke that makes it dangerous to overtake. In theory the cops have equipment to be able to pull these offenders over and test the pollution and fine the offenders....seldom happens.

We do not even have to roadworthy our vehicles on a yearly basis....only when buying a used vehicle. My Jeep is 16 years old and has never been to a roadworthy center as I got it new from the USA. We have vehicles on the road held together with duct tape and wire with smooth tires, belching out smoke carrying on with their business.

Anyhow both on this site and Lost you should get some good advise on how to sort your Cats out....good luck.

It's South Africa, despite being one of the most developed nations in Africa, everyone is fairly familiar with the level of corruption there. Between twisted politicians that make those in the US look tame, and the corrupt law enforcement.. you know where that money is going.

In the US, vehicle roadworthyness is determined State by State, if at all. My home state of Michigan has no required inspections or tests. Now if police see your car on the road and you've got parts hanging off of it dragging on the road, or it's clearly unsafe, they'll stop absolutely. But we don't need to take them in every year or every so often to be tested or inspected either.

We have similar states of vehicles on the roads, duct tape holding down the hood, wire ties keeping the bumper attached, tires so bald and smooth they look like Patrick Stewart's head.

Note: I've edited out parts of quoted text I did not respond to so that the forum software will allow my long reply.
 

sota

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I hate to say it, but by having the motor swap done it's opened a huge can of worms for you. Sorry. :(
 

tjkj2002

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If your engine is struggling and have a P0420 your going to need new cats,there plugged restricting flow and choking the engine.

Easy way to tell is to remove both up-stream O2 sensors and take for a short drive,if the power is back the cats plugged.


Oh and your flywheel better not be machined flat,if it is it will cause issues.No machining at all on the KJ's flywheel,must have curve still present for proper operation.A machined flat KJ flywheel will cause chatter.
 

adamkrz

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I know the manual and everyone say's the flywheel has a curve - I disagree, When I changed my clutch some years back on my 04 5 speed i checked the flywheel with a straightedge and it was perfectly flat -so I only scuffed it per the manual, I also have a spare from a 03 KJ and it to is flat.. So I don't know what's going on..

This was discussed years back and other folks who replaced clutches also had flat flywheels ???
 

tjkj2002

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I know the manual and everyone say's the flywheel has a curve - I disagree, When I changed my clutch some years back on my 04 5 speed i checked the flywheel with a straightedge and it was perfectly flat -so I only scuffed it per the manual, I also have a spare from a 03 KJ and it to is flat.. So I don't know what's going on..

This was discussed years back and other folks who replaced clutches also had flat flywheels ???

Been here from the beginning and know of no such thread.

There curved and need to be curved,same for the TJ's.I've had to replace many at work because they had been machined and then started chattering.
 

JasonJ

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If your engine is struggling and have a P0420 your going to need new cats,there plugged restricting flow and choking the engine.

Easy way to tell is to remove both up-stream O2 sensors and take for a short drive,if the power is back the cats plugged.


Oh and your flywheel better not be machined flat,if it is it will cause issues.No machining at all on the KJ's flywheel,must have curve still present for proper operation.A machined flat KJ flywheel will cause chatter.

I also wonder, Troy, if whomever installed this clutch assembly put the friction disc in backwards... flywheel side towards the clutch plate.

I have never done a Jeep clutch replacement, only Ford 4 cyl. So maybe that's not even physically possible...
 

adamkrz

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Been here from the beginning and know of no such thread.

There curved and need to be curved,same for the TJ's.I've had to replace many at work because they had been machined and then started chattering.

I have pictures of one I have removed from an 03, it's exactly as my 04 - and rechecked last night - it's flat, how do I post pics? Between here and the lost forum some others also showed flat flywheels.

For what it's worth mine chatters when when wet or damp first thing in the morning otherwise smooth..
 

Myke

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I have pictures of one I have removed from an 03, it's exactly as my 04 - and rechecked last night - it's flat, how do I post pics? Between here and the lost forum some others also showed flat flywheels.

For what it's worth mine chatters when when wet or damp first thing in the morning otherwise smooth..

upload your image to imgur.com then copy the direct url. It needs to end with an image file format (.png, .jpg/.jpeg,.gif) and paste that between to two img tags like this

HTML:
[img]http://example.com/picture.jpg[/img]
 

Billwill

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I also wonder, Troy, if whomever installed this clutch assembly put the friction disc in backwards... flywheel side towards the clutch plate.

I have never done a Jeep clutch replacement, only Ford 4 cyl. So maybe that's not even physically possible...

I can believe that it could be physically possible which is why the KJ Service Manual gives you directions on how to make sure you fit it the correct way.
As I stated in my previous comment...when I was young and foolish I fitted a clutch plate the wrong way around....on an E30 323i BMW. Did not work at all so I had to undo everything and fit it the right way around...still hurts where I was kicking myself!:gr_grin:

I wonder if some owners have fitted non-standard clutch plates that were flat but got away with it because they also machined down the flywheel or fitted a flat non-standard flywheel?
 

turblediesel

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Pulled a backwards-installed clutch plate out of an Opel GT. Worked fine until one side of it wore down. A shop nearby put it in for the previous owner.

Back to Jeeps...
 
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Vgirl

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Thank you guys SO much!!:flowers2::flowers2::flowers2:
Sorry for the delay. Cable/Internet went out AGAIN, spotty yesterday and full out today ugh.

I cannot pretend to be able to help you with your CAT problem....although I am a cat lover...as I have a CRD without a CAT. [...]I can believe that it could be physically possible which is why the KJ Service Manual gives you directions on how to make sure you fit it the correct way.
By the sounds of it from additional info, I don't think that chatter is a belt tensioner (although they do make that noise). If it all goes away and gets smooth when you disengage (press in) the clutch, there's something off about the clutch assembly [...]I also wonder, Troy, if whomever installed this clutch assembly put the friction disc in backwards... flywheel side towards the clutch plate.
I hate to say it, but by having the motor swap done it's opened a huge can of worms for you. Sorry. :(
If your engine is struggling and have a P0420 your going to need new cats,there plugged restricting flow and choking the engine.
Easy way to tell is to remove both up-stream O2 sensors and take for a short drive,if the power is back the cats plugged.[...]
I know the manual and everyone say's the flywheel has a curve - I disagree, When I changed my clutch[...]
Pulled a backwards-installed clutch plate out of an Opel GT[...]

Thank you Billwill, understood about CRD and CAT. And also cats. I love them too:)
Sad to hear emissions laws are like that in SA. I've known two families from SA and heard it's a beautiful country, land wise. I appreciate duct tape and wire mods when needed in a pinch but that sounds scary if it's the norm there. In my state they only inspect for emissions now. It used to be stricter ie, brakes, windshield, wipers, lights, etc before privatizing the agency. I've rolled thru with a lengthwise crack in the windshield, which they'd slap a new inspection sticker on because emissions passed. But cops pulled me over for the windshield, which is annoying. Anyway. Mine is coming due in Nov so this P0420 code can't be lit this time thru!
Haven't posted yet to LOST because I just got internet service back and my phone gets cranky with forums. But I will!

Thank you, JasonJ. I didn't have time to check the flywheel myself before taking it into the shop today. Work days until 9-10p in the rain (outdoor profession) plus Lyme exhaustion. But I am mechanically inclined with a very healthy sense of self-preservation. I would LOVE to work on my own Jeep! Learning during triage-mode isn't exactly what I had in mind tho!! But I'm into doing what I can. Like. If something goes sideways I'm the kind of person who runs to the scene, not away from it. So I'm excited to learn how to for my Jeep.

I discussed all of what you guys have mentioned with the mech in person today. He is a good-graces kind of guy. Said that if he mistakenly installed the friction plate backwards, as you, turblediesel, and Billwill mention, he'd do it all on his time at no cost to me because it was his error. And that it is an error that is possible.

Ugh, I know - that text convo we had about the flywheel. Undo-button, time machine moment:( Today I asked him again about it and how his voice text almost killed me. He reenacted how he scrambled to correct it at the time. I believe him. He said he knew about no-machine down on the flywheel because "it's huge everywhere on the computer when you look it up." There was no sublet invoice, and he has been on point about quoting charges and mentioning favors done for him at no charge before this happened.

I mentioned the bolts, pattern, and torque specs. He answered them all before I finished. Original bolts, cross pattern with the 5, and was off by under 10 recalling the torque (it was over 3wks ago).

Re: the console. Yep, sounds right. Friend's husband and Jeep mech friend did the clutch job in their driveway then. New mech said he can lower it from above and wouldn't need to do that. I said that could be why it's off plumb and maybe the console should be removed to see. He said okay.

Spot on about Patriots and Compasses = cars wanting to be Jeeps. I just smh when I see them.

I get what you're saying about the law and the injectors. I'm very reasonable, understand people are human, and stuff happens. I'm willing to let something like that mistake go when it's acknowledged, apologies given, and genuine efforts supersede the error. In other words: big picture, the character of the person means more to me than the money. He's truly trying to sort this issue out for me. He could have easily bailed on me and my Jeep at this point, since the original job was completed. Instead. When I handed him the valet key today. He said he "loves this key!" and asked if I wanted him to keep a spare at the shop. (Funny not funny!)

Re: the CAT. He said he had to replace the spring bolts during engine job, they were so rusted out (one shot him in the chest, left a bruise, I wasn't happy to hear that:( ) So he's going to check that first to see if tight because if not it could cause enough of a leak to trip the P0420 code, like what you are saying. But that crap mechanic who saw it first after breakdown said "it's throwing a CAT code." I mentioned that to the new mech today, he didn't recall me telling him. I probably didn't because I wanted fresh eyes-on. So I'm wondering now if it is the CATs since prior.
It is just that code when I checked Sunday. Was parked until today when I drove to the shop but didn't bother checking again since I was there.

They're the OE CATs. I've 221K+ on them. So if they need replacing I'd like to get ahead of it. What aftermarket brands of CATs do our Jeeps like? I can do a 49 state one. (I did a search and saw one of the members had Walker on his 03 Renegade, TwoKJsBob I think is the member's name.)

Thanks, sota, but I disagree. They're unrelated. A bad TO in a new Mopar kit could happen in a clutch-only job. A CAT or CATs can go bad on their own.
If that were the case Jasper wouldn't be in business since WWII, no engine shops would do rebuilds or R&Rs, there'd be no market for old engines at salvage yards, and no one would sell nor seek to buy cheap Jeeps needing engine work:)

A friend and colleague has a Jasper in her F350 since 2 yrs ago. She said it has been perfect and would do it again in heartbeat.

Thanks, tjkj2002. Understand what you are saying and (simply) how CATs work. I screenshot everyone's replies and read them to the mech today. When I got to yours about "the easy way to tell if.." he finished the sentence.

And yes, I knew about the flywheel curve when I researched it here and on LOST in 2013 when I had the OE clutch replaced by my friend. I failed to review it with new mech prior but he said he didn't machine it (explained above).

Far as I've read, adamkrz - and I read a LOT when researching - I've only ever seen no-machining flywheel, curve is supposed to be there, lightly scuff only if needed. All on this forum, the Jeep one, and LOST. But would be interested to see if there might be some that are different(?)

Thank you guys again, SO much. You're awesome!! Sorry for the huge post, wanted to include replies to everyone.
 

Vgirl

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Update.

Mech said it sounds like the TO bearing. Again.
The Mopar kit will be returned.

He didn't say anything about the P0420 code issue just yet.
I'm not sure how much he's gotten into it yet because end of week.

Does anyone have an recommendations on an aftermarket clutch kit brand?

Searches don't show much nor current posts. I called Quadratec, they're not too far from me. The guy I spoke with said AMS is a great brand, for Wranglers. But he doesn't stock one for KJ with a 3.7 and didn't know of any brands perfect for KJs:(

Thanks guys!!
 

Vgirl

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I know the manual and everyone say's the flywheel has a curve - I disagree, When I changed my clutch some years back on my 04 5 speed i checked the flywheel with a straightedge and it was perfectly flat -so I only scuffed it per the manual, I also have a spare from a 03 KJ and it to is flat.. So I don't know what's going on..

This was discussed years back and other folks who replaced clutches also had flat flywheels ???

Been here from the beginning and know of no such thread.

There curved and need to be curved,same for the TJ's.I've had to replace many at work because they had been machined and then started chattering.

I have pictures of one I have removed from an 03, it's exactly as my 04 - and rechecked last night - it's flat, how do I post pics? Between here and the lost forum some others also showed flat flywheels.

For what it's worth mine chatters when when wet or damp first thing in the morning otherwise smooth..

Soooo this is weird.

Looking at clutch kits at RockAuto with my KJ specs.

The Platinum Driveline one says:

Flywheel Spec: FLAT (Only 2 Remaining)
 

adamkrz

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I used the LUK replacement clutch kit replaced maybe 4 years ago and everything is good, I tried to upload a picture of my flywheel but image was to large.I don't do computers well,.

Anyway I wonder if some were dual mass and others not - on lost KJ's user letfreedom ring and others also had a flat flywheel if you can look it up. I only used a straightedge to determine mine.

If you have to take it apart again I would measure to see what 's up. My original flywheel only needed a quick go over with fine sandpaper.

I still have a spare Mopar flywheel from an 2003 KJ with only 23k on it, I'll try to post a photo later.
 
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tjkj2002

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I used the LUK replacement clutch kit replaced maybe 4 years ago and everything is good, I tried to upload a picture of my flywheel but image was to large.I don't do computers well,.

Anyway I wonder if some were dual mass and others not - on lost KJ's user letfreedom ring and others also had a flat flywheel if you can look it up. I only used a straightedge to determine mine.

If you have to take it apart again I would measure to see what 's up. My original flywheel only needed a quick go over with fine sandpaper.

I still have a spare Mopar flywheel from an 2003 KJ with only 23k on it, I'll try to post a photo later.

The 2.4 gas KJ's got a dual mass flywheel,those can not be machined also(no dual mass flywheel can be machined).
 

JasonJ

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The 2.4 gas KJ's got a dual mass flywheel,those can not be machined also(no dual mass flywheel can be machined).

I second this; VW's use dual mass flywheels on many of their vehicles, and when I worked the service dept at a VW/Audi dealer, we'd get the "second do-over" jobs from other shops that tried to do a clutch job on them and tried to have the dual mass flywheels machined. Screwed it all up.
 

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