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Wet Torque vs Dry Torque? Opinions please!


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Old 02-27-2009, 01:25 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Wet Torque vs Dry Torque? Opinions please!


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What is the general consensus on "Wet Torque vs Dry Torque?"
Especially in regards to Lug nuts (or for some import vehicles bolts used to fasten a vehicles wheel to a hub.)
In layman's terms, applying anti seize (copper slip, Molly slip, Teflon based grease, plain old grease or some form of oil) to the threads of the wheel studs/lug nuts/ bolts then torquing the lug nut/bolt to the manufactures recommended specification.
This will of course include doing the same for engine assembly.
The stretching of threads with cut threads opposed to rolled (ARP products for example) threads and so forth.

I was taught to always apply Copper slip (or a similar product) to either the lug nuts or wheel studs and on the back of a wheel so that the wheel and hub do not fuse together due to corrosion making removal easier.
After wrenching for 30 years, am I misinformed and doing it wrong?
I have never had a wheel come off from using lubricated threads or it's torque be affected.

What are your opinions on this?
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Old 02-27-2009, 02:21 PM   #2 (permalink)
 
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I've always did the same as you on all vehicles I've been around. Removal of wheels has always been easier for me when applying said product or similar variant.
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Old 02-27-2009, 02:22 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by socks View Post
What is the general consensus on "Wet Torque vs Dry Torque?"
Especially in regards to Lug nuts (or for some import vehicles bolts used to fasten a vehicles wheel to a hub.)
In layman's terms, applying anti seize (copper slip, Molly slip, Teflon based grease, plain old grease or some form of oil) to the threads of the wheel studs/lug nuts/ bolts then torquing the lug nut/bolt to the manufactures recommended specification.
This will of course include doing the same for engine assembly.
The stretching of threads with cut threads opposed to rolled (ARP products for example) threads and so forth.

I was taught to always apply Copper slip (or a similar product) to either the lug nuts or wheel studs and on the back of a wheel so that the wheel and hub do not fuse together due to corrosion making removal easier.
After wrenching for 30 years, am I misinformed and doing it wrong?
I have never had a wheel come off from using lubricated threads or it's torque be affected.

What are your opinions on this?
Torque is applied pressure regardless! Wet relates to ease of removal as you stated.

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Old 02-27-2009, 03:47 PM   #4 (permalink)
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I oil my lugs all the time, so that would be WET torque. Still, if the lugs go on at 79ft pounds (example), it will be 79ft lbs wet or dry, the reading on the wrench will be the same. You may be thinking it's a TAD tighter wet torque, but 79lbs is 79lbs wet or dry.
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Old 02-27-2009, 04:22 PM   #5 (permalink)
 
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Wet is always better.

It prevent friction of the fastener and binding of the threads.
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Last edited by ShafferNY; 02-27-2009 at 04:24 PM.
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Old 02-27-2009, 05:25 PM   #6 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by ShafferNY View Post
Wet is always better.

It prevent friction of the fastener and binding of the threads.
Exactly. Torque is torque and socks knows that. If you try to put a lug nut on a dirty stud it will take torque just to put the lug on so youre not getting a true 100ft lbs of torque to hold the wheel on. Sure it took 100ft lbs to get it tight but thats useless if it took a 1/4 of the torque just to get it on.

Ive always used anti seize on any lug Ive taken off. I also put it all over the surface where the wheel mates up along with the hub so the wheel doesnt get stuck on. Ive had to beat them off before.
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Old 02-27-2009, 08:02 PM   #7 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by JeepJeepster View Post
Exactly. Torque is torque and socks knows that.
So what you're saying is, a pound of feathers weighs the same as a pound of lead...
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Old 02-27-2009, 09:09 PM   #8 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by jnaut View Post
So what you're saying is, a pound of feathers weighs the same as a pound of lead...
And gravity is 9.8m/s^2..
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Old 02-27-2009, 09:50 PM   #9 (permalink)
 
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Found this...............
Bolt torque is a subject that is often misunderstood or overlooked on basic repairs. An average technician will remove and reinstall thousands of fasteners during their career. Loose or incorrectly, torqued fasteners are amongst the most common reasons for a shop “comeback”. Sometimes hours or days after the vehicle was placed back on the road, the technician may have after thoughts of the repair. Did I tighten that bolt enough, did I over tighten that bolt (maybe with an impact gun) or should those bolts have been replaced? The intention of this article is to point out some of the most commonly overlooked or misunderstood facts about fasteners and the torque of fasteners.
Common methods for bolt torque:

Torque wrench
The “old standard”, used to tighten bolts to a defined torque value. Applied torque is rated in foot-pounds (ft-lbs), inch pounds (in-lbs) and/or Newton meters (Nm) for metric applications. Multiple sizes and types are used for different applications. A ¼-inch drive 100 in-lbs beam type torque wrench would be appropriate for tightening a transmission valve body; where a ½- inch drive click type torque wench can be used on passenger car lug nuts and would not make a good choice for that valve body repair. Choosing the correct tool for the job is critical.

Torque Angle
Torque angle gage is used in addition to a torque wrench when the bolt torque specification requires a torque value and additional tightening measured in degrees. Example: 35ft-lbs plus 90 degrees plus an additional 60 degrees making a three-step torque process. The torque angle gage is commonly used for torque to yield bolts.

Bolt stretch
Measuring bolt stretch requires the use of a bolt-stretch gage (with a dial indicator). This application is for high performance connecting rod bolts and engines that are disassembled on a regular basis.
This allows the technician to achieve the highest tensile strength (yield point) of the bolt with a high level of consistency. The bolt manufacturer will specify the amount of stretch.
Dry vs. Wet torque

When applying torque to a dry bolt more friction is created than applying torque to a wet bolt with oil or other automotive fluids on the threads. With less friction (wet threads), the bolt will stretch more before a torque wench will click. Because friction is such a big factor in bolt torque, it is important to know the difference between applying torque to a dry bolt and a wet bolt. Using oil, anti-seize or other types of thread lubricant is a common practice, but an understanding that wet threads require less torque than dry threads because of friction is very important. Since every type of lubricant has a different loss of friction coefficient, it is recommended that every technician own a chart showing how much to reduce the torque when using different bolts and lubricants. This type of chart can accompany a bolt torque table, a drill index chart for drilling and tapping, a conversion chart and a basic calculator. The “Pocket Ref” by Thomas J. Glover is a great all-in-one book with just about everything.
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Old 02-27-2009, 10:31 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by tjkj2002 View Post
Found this...............
I like your answer the best Troy!

I had to go back to basic Engineering books and all the way up to more complicated material to fully appreciate just what was being said with the question that I posted!
I looked into many a book, web site and "what have you" to read what everybody had/has to say about this topic.
I remember talking to David Vizard "The Wizard" and Dave Anton many a moon ago in person about a cam shaft I bought for my Mini (Pre scatter cam VP7) and this very topic...
The torquing of engine and transmission nuts and bolts with and without lubrication, Lock tight, etc.
Very interesting to say the least!

Last edited by Ry' N Jen; 02-28-2009 at 06:50 AM.
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